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Post by laughter on Dec 18, 2014 9:00:30 GMT -5
Obviously, the question "is a brain dead body self-realized?" is similar in form to "does a dog have Buddha nature?". History and culture can be quite useful sometimes. ... some conditioning can save a peep some time!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 9:14:07 GMT -5
No, that's my point. Non-duality doesn't seem to explain how we function in the world.Edit: Let me put it this way. I don't understand what the difference is in a mind previous to a non-dual realization and after non-dual realization. Right. It's absolutely useless to the practical mind. I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 9:35:04 GMT -5
The story seems to be already written. Nice. She lost control of this artwork as it was quite obvious from the exchange that she was demanding a direct answer from you while refusing to offer one of her own. It was all agenda right from the start. In one of her posts she asked me why I am so evasive, which - interestingly - she edited out later. After Silver was sniping in, she started talking about holes in a story. And now this. As I've said in the other thread, sincere interest is a euphemism for a paint job. I've also noticed that when she puts this smiley --> into her posts, she's smelling blood and a stuckagenda/full-of-it crusade is just around the corner.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 9:35:55 GMT -5
Obviously, the question "is a brain dead body self-realized?" is similar in form to "does a dog have Buddha nature?". History and culture can be quite useful sometimes. ... some conditioning can save a peep some time! Well, I would suggest that she lets her body answer the question.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 18, 2014 10:42:14 GMT -5
Obviously, the question "is a brain dead body self-realized?" is similar in form to "does a dog have Buddha nature?". History and culture can be quite useful sometimes. ... some conditioning can save a peep some time! Yes, and if one can stop thinking for a while, the answers to both questions will become obvious.
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Post by laughter on Dec 18, 2014 11:35:34 GMT -5
Obviously, the question "is a brain dead body self-realized?" is similar in form to "does a dog have Buddha nature?". History and culture can be quite useful sometimes. ... some conditioning can save a peep some time! Yes, and if one can stop thinking for a while, the answers to both questions will become obvious. (** smiles **) (** bows **)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 18, 2014 11:42:25 GMT -5
Right. It's absolutely useless to the practical mind. I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality. I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'll have to listen to Noah as time permits. We have a self-image. I think that's what I think I am. The trouble is nobody can be objective about their self. It takes a lot of seeing self to get even close to being objective. Is it possible? Yes. That's why awakening is devastating. It's not this lovey-dovey aw ain't it wonderful peace and oneness with all.......ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.... When you see that self-image and self don't line up, not even close, well.........
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Post by figgles on Dec 18, 2014 19:08:52 GMT -5
She lost control of this artwork as it was quite obvious from the exchange that she was demanding a direct answer from you while refusing to offer one of her own. It was all agenda right from the start. In one of her posts she asked me why I am so evasive, which - interestingly - she edited out later. After Silver was sniping in, she started talking about holes in a story. And now this. As I've said in the other thread, sincere interest is a euphemism for a paint job. I've also noticed that when she puts this smiley --> into her posts, she's smelling blood and a stuckagenda/full-of-it crusade is just around the corner. No. I'm genuinely interested in at least hearing what your definition of 'self realization' is..... If you like, to prove my absence of agenda, I'll even refrain from responding if you DO choose to post it.
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2014 19:45:53 GMT -5
Right. It's absolutely useless to the practical mind. I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality. Good stuff, but really, 'giving up belief in self' needs to take the form of losing interest. Otherwise, it is a self that wants to give it up for his own 'self'ish interests, and that's remarkably ineffective. Losing interest, or as I say, walking off the battle field, may become a very important focus at some point in the seeker's career.
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2014 19:48:48 GMT -5
She lost control of this artwork as it was quite obvious from the exchange that she was demanding a direct answer from you while refusing to offer one of her own. It was all agenda right from the start. In one of her posts she asked me why I am so evasive, which - interestingly - she edited out later. After Silver was sniping in, she started talking about holes in a story. And now this. As I've said in the other thread, sincere interest is a euphemism for a paint job. I've also noticed that when she puts this smiley --> into her posts, she's smelling blood and a stuckagenda/full-of-it crusade is just around the corner. The blood sniffer! ( : I'll watch for that.
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2014 19:57:09 GMT -5
I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality. I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'll have to listen to Noah as time permits. We have a self-image. I think that's what I think I am. The trouble is nobody can be objective about their self. It takes a lot of seeing self to get even close to being objective. Is it possible? Yes. That's why awakening is devastating. It's not this lovey-dovey aw ain't it wonderful peace and oneness with all.......ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.... When you see that self-image and self don't line up, not even close, well......... That implies that you can describe the self. Would you care to do so?
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 20:27:43 GMT -5
Right. It's absolutely useless to the practical mind. I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality. But non-duality is pointing to something much more fundamental than just self-stories. As you can see here on the forum, basically everyone is aware of those stories, but it's a tiny minority that is also aware of the actual origins of that story. You will find that basically everyone here will agree that letting go and releasing those stories is something useful. But you will only see a tiny minority pointing further at the actual origin of those stories, the structure that makes those stories possible - and that's the belief in a separate volitional person, or a co-coordinator as UG calls it. That's why peeling off the story layers of the self-story onion (i.e. paths and practices) is basically just a distraction.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 20:30:17 GMT -5
I was listening to a fellow talk about the source and end of social anxiety. ( Noah Elkrief) Basically he was saying that social anxiety is the fear of losing yourself (due to criticism). And this is because (a) criticism from others is believed; and (b) there is a fundamental belief in one's story of self (I am this and that). But the fact is that nothing you think about yourself is who you are. You are what is there witnessing all the various themes and subthemes of the selfstory. No more self story no more social anxiety. The practical minded might be motivated to end social anxiety (or other fears) and see giving up belief in self / separation to further that end. And it seems like that is a pivotal aspect of shifting from a perspective of duality to nonduality. I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'll have to listen to Noah as time permits. We have a self-image. I think that's what I think I am. The trouble is nobody can be objective about their self. It takes a lot of seeing self to get even close to being objective. Is it possible? Yes. That's why awakening is devastating. It's not this lovey-dovey aw ain't it wonderful peace and oneness with all.......ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.... When you see that self-image and self don't line up, not even close, well......... Really, the self-image isn't the actual issue. As we all know, even brown bears answer with their name and address and age when asked. And so do the sages on the mountain tops.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 18, 2014 20:33:32 GMT -5
It was all agenda right from the start. In one of her posts she asked me why I am so evasive, which - interestingly - she edited out later. After Silver was sniping in, she started talking about holes in a story. And now this. As I've said in the other thread, sincere interest is a euphemism for a paint job. I've also noticed that when she puts this smiley --> into her posts, she's smelling blood and a stuckagenda/full-of-it crusade is just around the corner. No. I'm genuinely interested in at least hearing what your definition of 'self realization' is..... If you like, to prove my absence of agenda, I'll even refrain from responding if you DO choose to post it. Well, we all know how trustworthy you actually are. I see several options for you: 1) take Earnest's advice and look within 2) take ZD's advice and stop thinking for a moment 3) take my first advice and pay attention to what has actually been written (just hafta look into my post dumpster) 4) take my second advice and let the body answer 5) just let it go
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 19, 2014 0:21:30 GMT -5
I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'll have to listen to Noah as time permits. We have a self-image. I think that's what I think I am. The trouble is nobody can be objective about their self. It takes a lot of seeing self to get even close to being objective. Is it possible? Yes. That's why awakening is devastating. It's not this lovey-dovey aw ain't it wonderful peace and oneness with all.......ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.... When you see that self-image and self don't line up, not even close, well......... That implies that you can describe the self. Would you care to do so? Sure. There is true self and false self. True self, aka essence, is what you are born as. So the physical body is part of essence. And part of the body are the centers, the intellectual center, the emotional center, the moving center (the muscles that 'move' the body), the sexual center and the instinctive center (the five senses and the operation of the body, that which doesn't have to be learned). False self, aka ego, personality or cultural self, begins being formed at birth. It is the acquired "self", the contents of the centers stored as memory. This is also known as conditioning. This is what we normally think of as self. This is the self referred to in the post. Going at least all the way back to the BC Greeks, they knew just how hard it is to see self, thus the Delphic and Socratic injunction, "Know Thyself". And Socrates also said, The unexamined life is not worth living. So, the self referred to is what we think, feel and do, plus the subconscious, also consisting of information stored in the centers. It's difficult to know self because most of what we think, feel and do comes from the subconscious. It's true self that can see false self, objectively. This is rather difficult to do, as our own self-image (again, who we think ourselves to be) obstructs the process. .......One place this shows up is in 12-step programs. The first step you have to get by is denial, seeing what actually is the case.
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