There is no one to be enlightened

[dramos]

Oct 19, 2009 12:22:15 GMT -5 souley said:

For me it seems like intellectual reasoning can show me that all my ideas are pretty much false and is just conditioning. But then even that has to be left behind so that no ideas remain. Or rather so that no ideas are believed to be anything other then ideas Reality is hilariously simple, and anything that is a combination of words, or a word, is just laid on top of it. And these words I just wrote are just meaningful to me and people who has had the same experiences. If you can't see the same simplicity, it just me desperately trying to point to it, and you forming another idea about what it could be like.

"There is no one". Ok but there is someone typing all these posts? We are all individuals posting our views. Yet there is also no one, in another sense. There is someone, and there is no one. These are all just ideas, and we are trying to use even more ideas to point to a place where all ideas are seen through. Maybe one idea will cancel the other out?

How about considering this idea, we are all universal cosmic beings.

[zendancer]

Hush! (how do I add a smileyface emoticon here?)

[lightmystic]

It's true, but then does that mean we are individual beings as separate? And who's will rules if we are separate beings that are all cosmic? What power and control do we really have if we are cosmic? There's the whole idea that we can manifest our own reality, but then whose reality wins when there is some appearance of objectivity? All these questions come up and get confusing to take things on their own terms.

I think souley makes a valid point that putting stock in any idea is just a confusion of what's already going on. It's so simple otherwise. So, really, the best thing we can do is cancel our assumptions out - and that can be done by recognizing the reverse is also true. Life is NEVER just one way. And that includes that statement, meaning that life even be one way sometimes.

Cancels out to zero.

PS: Zendancer, the smiley face is ":" and then ")", put together (no spaces and no quotes) and it automatically forms a smiley face when posted.

Oct 19, 2009 13:23:11 GMT -5 dramos said:

How about considering this idea, we are all universal cosmic beings.

[Zendancer1]

LM: Yes, that's a good point. When our understanding reaches a certain state, we see both sides of every issue at the same time, and to make any statement we purposely ignore the other half of the truth. No matter what we say, we know that the opposite of what we have said is just as true (or false). When we attempt to point people toward the truth, poetry is often a better pointer than prose because it captures the flavor more accurately of what we're trying to communicate.

Zen teachers use koans specifically to help students break through the usual dualities. At first, it isn't clear what they're doing, even if we answer some koans correctly, but as time goes by, we learn to relinquish our reliance on words and ideas and go straight to the truth. Is this a bell or not a bell? In silence we ring the bell. Is this an apple or not an apple? We take a bite. Is this piece of paper form or void? We crumple it up and throw it in the wastebasket.

So, we sit here directly experiencing the absolute, and someone asks us, "Are you John Doe?" The word-answer is both yes and no at the same time. We are the undivided infinite manifesting "just like this," but we can choose to imagine that we are a separate entity for the purpose of communication. A humorous word-answer to the question might be, "John Doe is my disguise." A much better answer would be to reach out, twist the questioner's nose, and say "wake up! How could there possibly be a John Doe?"

I was reading Shawn's review of Linda Clair, the Australian teacher, and I often use the same kind of focus on body contemplation. I often ask people to look at a hair on their arm and consider what "they" had to do with it's appearance. How did "they" grow it? In one fraction of a second the body does a trillion things at the cellular level and people think they are in control! I love to ask college students, How do you clot "your" blood? How do you think a thought? How do you regulate your blood gas concentrations? How do you grow a nerve cell or cause a neuron to fire? How do you digest food or move a single finger? How do you breathe or see?

What an incredible illusion it is to think that we have anything to do with what's happening.

Ha ha, I remember when I first realized, with considerable horror, that I had no control over whether I would continue to meditate. At that time I felt sure that meditation would lead a person to clarity, but it dawned on me one day that whether I ever meditated again was not under my control. It was not something that I could force myself to do. I had the same realization concerning whether my deep love for my wife would continue. One day I thought, "OMG, I don;t even have control over that!" You would think that such a realization as that would wake a person up, but no such luck. LOL.

Oh well, gotta run. Thanks for the emoticon info.

[fear]

Oct 19, 2009 12:22:15 GMT -5 souley said:

For me it seems like intellectual reasoning can show me that all my ideas are pretty much false and is just conditioning. But then even that has to be left behind so that no ideas remain. Or rather so that no ideas are believed to be anything other then ideas Reality is hilariously simple, and anything that is a combination of words, or a word, is just laid on top of it. And these words I just wrote are just meaningful to me and people who has had the same experiences. If you can't see the same simplicity, it just me desperately trying to point to it, and you forming another idea about what it could be like.


"There is no one". Ok but there is someone typing all these posts? We are all individuals posting our views. Yet there is also no one, in another sense. There is someone, and there is no one. These are all just ideas, and we are trying to use even more ideas to point to a place where all ideas are seen through. Maybe one idea will cancel the other out?

So you've hit the ceiling, you have all the knowledge you need about enlightenment but it's just that, knowledge!

We know too much. But isn't enlightenment the "state of unknowing". But how do we unknow? there's that how word again. We're always looking for a tecinique. This time it's a technique to unknow. And then you'll need a technique to unknow that and it just keeps going.

Reality must be like math. You can approach infinity but that's it. You cannot define infinity. You cannot capture it either.

[lightmystic]

Hey Zendancer,

AH! Very clear pointing! I love it! Yeah, it eventually becomes recognized what is being talked about and the words become merely a placeholder for something that cannot be said directly, as each thing is infinite and contains all angles. But, up until then, there is a value to point from both directions. Reading two books about truth, each pointing from an opposite angle, helped me immensely back in the day.

Alternatively/Additionally, there is the zen path. There is a directness about Zen that I've always really appreciated.

You really bring up the conundrum in answering questions as well. But that's why having multiple answers or continual pointing seems so helpful. It's like the moon is pointed to and someone walks in that direction until they miss it, then they are pointed in the other direction. And the more flexible one is, the less time it takes for one to let themselves be reoriented. Eventually they see the moon.

Interesting how seeking is like playing a game of warmer/colder. I realized that when seeking, which was very frustrating for me.

I like the pointing you are talking about in terms of referring to the body. I haven't quite heard it talked about that way before, and I quite like it.

Yeah, it can definitely be concerning when it sinks in exactly how much lack of control we have....it can be terrifying at first, but is ultimately the greatest source of freedom. It really sunk in at one point that the direction of our greatest fear is always where the fulfillment of our greatest desire is hidden at any moment.

Oct 19, 2009 17:20:09 GMT -5 @Zendancer1 said:

LM: Yes, that's a good point. When our understanding reaches a certain state, we see both sides of every issue at the same time, and to make any statement we purposely ignore the other half of the truth. No matter what we say, we know that the opposite of what we have said is just as true (or false). When we attempt to point people toward the truth, poetry is often a better pointer than prose because it captures the flavor more accurately of what we're trying to communicate.

Zen teachers use koans specifically to help students break through the usual dualities. At first, it isn't clear what they're doing, even if we answer some koans correctly, but as time goes by, we learn to relinquish our reliance on words and ideas and go straight to the truth. Is this a bell or not a bell? In silence we ring the bell. Is this an apple or not an apple? We take a bite. Is this piece of paper form or void? We crumple it up and throw it in the wastebasket.

So, we sit here directly experiencing the absolute, and someone asks us, "Are you John Doe?" The word-answer is both yes and no at the same time. We are the undivided infinite manifesting "just like this," but we can choose to imagine that we are a separate entity for the purpose of communication. A humorous word-answer to the question might be, "John Doe is my disguise." A much better answer would be to reach out, twist the questioner's nose, and say "wake up! How could there possibly be a John Doe?"

I was reading Shawn's review of Linda Clair, the Australian teacher, and I often use the same kind of focus on body contemplation. I often ask people to look at a hair on their arm and consider what "they" had to do with it's appearance. How did "they" grow it? In one fraction of a second the body does a trillion things at the cellular level and people think they are in control! I love to ask college students, How do you clot "your" blood? How do you think a thought? How do you regulate your blood gas concentrations? How do you grow a nerve cell or cause a neuron to fire? How do you digest food or move a single finger? How do you breathe or see?

What an incredible illusion it is to think that we have anything to do with what's happening.

Ha ha, I remember when I first realized, with considerable horror, that I had no control over whether I would continue to meditate. At that time I felt sure that meditation would lead a person to clarity, but it dawned on me one day that whether I ever meditated again was not under my control. It was not something that I could force myself to do. I had the same realization concerning whether my deep love for my wife would continue. One day I thought, "OMG, I don;t even have control over that!" You would think that such a realization as that would wake a person up, but no such luck. LOL.

Oh well, gotta run. Thanks for the emoticon info.

[zendancer]

Fear and Souley: Hitting the ceiling is a great thing. Logical thought can't go any farther, but intuitively we sense that something lies beyond the ceiling and our ordinary dualistic perspective. What is it, and how do we get there? This seeming dead end paralyzes the rational mind and forces something else to go deeper into the issue. It may seem as if nothing is happening when one reaches this point, but that is not true. Something is happening at a deeper level. Our True Self is searching for a way to penetrate the barrier. During the day, we can return to the question periodically, give it a little bit of conscious attention, and then let it go again. It is like keeping a pot of water on "boil." Until there is sufficient heat, the water won;t boil.

As for the question, "How do we not-know?" it is a similar issue, but a few reminders and pointers may help. When it is time to go to the bathroom, how do we "know" that its time? Our knowing is direct; it is not something that we have to consciously think about. It comes through the body. We "know" that it's time through "gnossis," not "episteme" (to use the Greek words.)

Because our thinking habit is so strong, we don't realize that seeing without thinking (not-knowing) occurs all the time. It only becomes obvious after we have practiced a bit of mental silence.

Here is something to reflect upon. A camera cannot take a picture of a "thing." A camera sees and captures only what is. Let's say that we try to photograph a "chair." We point a Polaroid camera at the chair and click the shutter. What do we see in the photograph? We see a field of being which includes everything in the camera's field of biew. We can choose to imagine objects in the photograph, but the camera cannot separate an object from the field. Only a graphics generator can do that and only by projecting a constructed image on a blank background. If a Polaroid camera pointed at a chair only pictured the chair and nothing else, it would be functioning like our imagination, but it can't do that. Now, with this thought in mind, look at the world just like the lens of a camera, without imagining that anything is separate. When you do nothing but look, you are then in a state of not-knowing, and you will only see a total field of view--what is. With sufficient practice you can learn to stay in that state of direct sensory perception looking at the world just like the lens of a camera. You will not see "things" because you will not be imagining their existence as separate objects.

We talk about things so often that we imagine that they are separate from one another, but upon closer examination "things" disintegrate. For example, when we talk about a "tree," what are we talking about? The truth is a seamless process of endless transformation. Each moment what the tree IS is changing. Our thinking minds are like graphics generators breaking down the action into static images--seed, sprout, sapling, young tree, older tree, dead tree, rotting tree, etc. To capture the truth we would need a video camera. It is the same with all things. Zen has lots of koans that are designed to help us break through the illusion of "thingness." If we start taking parts off of an automobile, when does it cease to be an automobile? If we look at our "hand," "wrist", and "arm" where are the boundaries--the precise lines--- at which each thing grades into the other? The boundaries are imaginary and only exist in our heads. What is a university? The students, the professors, the buildings, etc. all come and go, so what are we referring to when we use the word "university?"

So, if we spend some time looking at things and questioning their separateness, this will automatically put us into a state of not-knowing. If that doesn't do it, just remember the camera and look at the world like a camera does, without distinction. In Reality there are no separate things. Reality is a unified field of suchness that is alive, intelligent, and conscious. It even communicates with Itself on the internet!! Cheers.

[loverofall]

The statement "There is nothing to do to be enlightened" is similar to the statement that evangelicals Christians say that there is nothing to do but accept Jesus. There is always somthing to do at some level. Changing a thought, reading, clear seeing are all some sort of effort.

I take it to mean the best effort is to accept right now right here that everything is perfect (but then again that takes effort too)

[zendancer]

loverofall: Okay, find out if experiencing the truth requires effort. Listen for a moment to any sound within your range of hearing. Did you have to expend any effort in order to hear the sound? Do you have to expend any effort to see? Or, did you simply shift your focus of attention? This is what we're talking about.

Please do not accept anything you read here on faith. Find out for yourself what is true. Yes, many of us on this website would say that reality is perfect just as it is, but those words come from direct experience and are pointing to something beyond words and ideas. If you shift your attention to what you can see and hear, your understanding may change.

It may appear that personal effort is involved in changing one's habits of mind, but later that idea will vanish along with many other ideas. The truth is literally incomprehensible to the mind. Perhaps the most powerful verse in the Bible is Psalms 46:10: "Be still and know that I am God." So, just for fun, stop, and be still. Don't think, imagine, cognize, fantasize, reflect, distinguish, calculate, compare, create, project, delineate, discriminate, or talk to yourself. Just become psychologically still and spend some time looking and listening in total silence. You might be amazed at what you discover. Cheers.

[loverofall]

Its a great pointing scripture. It this somthing we don't really understand until we really experience it, becasue for be to be still and not think does take some sort of will or effort. The best I can describe it is when Sailor Bob Adamson uses the term full stop but when we full stop, isn't that an action?

This probably isn't that important to get as long as I shift to full stop and be still. Its like the zen koans, we really can't fully understand it until we experience it.

I can grasp that these thoughts too will dissolve. I guess this is where we just be still, present, aware, accepting of whatever is happening to be enlightened right now. Is it that the more we shift to that awareness level, the easier and deeper it becomes over time?

[zendancer]

Yes, that's it. The more we experience life directly through our senses, the less we stayed glued (there's an appropriate word!) to our imaginations and internal monologue. We return to the mysterious world in which we lived as children. We begin to see through our thoughts and become detached from them. Thoughts still appear, but they don't have the same power and effect. We recognize fantasies when they start to appear and cut them off. We recognize when our mind starts to compare (the "keeping up with the Jones'es syndrome") and we shut it down by shifting our attention elsewhere. We let go of countless other ideas and gradually they show up less and less often.

[souley]

So you are thinking alot and dont want that. You try to stop it, "willingly stop it". So first there is mental activity of thinking, then on top there is the mental activity of not thinking. It ends up kind of like another activity on top of the first.

Trying not to think +
Thinking
= Nothing?

But this isnt really satisfying, it seems like it takes a lot of effort. You can't really just be, so to speak. But it does show you some thing, give you insights and you get more and more comfortable as you practice.

Then something might happen, after a pretty long time I might add. Instead of trying not to think, making an effort all the time, you just get sick of thinking, trying not to think, all different methods, seeing clearly how stupid it is. Then its like you just give up thinking instead

Thinking - thinking
= nothing

And then it is liberating. But the second step needs the practice of the first. Trying for the second isnt really possible, because trying anything is not it, it just needs to happen, and probably will at some point. But surrender is the hardest thing, although it is the easiest thing when you actually do it.

Just my personal experience

[fear]

Souley, you speak the truth. I don't think that anyone I know would believe what you just wrote about, but you and I know that this is true from our experiences.

I think a good indicator of truth is, "do most people agree", if yes than it's probably not the truth. "if most don't agree" then I would look into it further.

People hate to hear that there is "no way". Enlightenment is an impossible task. It's a gift of grace and it arrives when you least expect it to.

[loverofall]

I do relate to the being tired of the mind and its dialogue. I also get that trying and not trying are part of the equation.

A powerful concept that seems to help lately is that my ego is the reference point. A circle needs a center to exist and with out the center the circle cannot exist. Our limited circle dissappears when we dissolve the reference point.

I was playing tennis today and the usual reactions of irritation when I didn't play well arose and feelings fear of letting my teammate down also popped up but they go away immediately when I see the reference point that is needed for those feelings doesn't exist.

[souley]

Oct 25, 2009 10:29:08 GMT -5 fear said:

Souley, you speak the truth. I don't think that anyone I know would believe what you just wrote about, but you and I know that this is true from our experiences.

I think a good indicator of truth is, "do most people agree", if yes than it's probably not the truth. "if most don't agree" then I would look into it further.

People hate to hear that there is "no way". Enlightenment is an impossible task. It's a gift of grace and it arrives when you least expect it to.

Yes it is pretty crazy that what people believe and what reality is really like is so different.. If people don't like something there is probably a big chance that their egoic fears are talking and then it is surely worth examining:)

And about trying for enlightenment - I find it hard to talk about and I don't know much about it but I don't agree that it is purely grace, at least not from the egoic point of view. The ego can definitely be explored, seen more clearly, and unwound, but it takes time, honesty and dedication. And without ego there is no enlightenment or need for enlightenment. But of course you are not doing that, but until then the experience will be that you are doing something, so it's not helpful to say that you can't do anything. I could say that you can just sit and wait if you are completely open, but no one is completely open. For that you have to really take a serious look at yourself and your issues..

So I feel that you are about 100% right and 100% wrong