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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 9:04:36 GMT -5
Disentangle the desire from the narrative? The beauty of the who/what am I? trick is when it is employed in the midst of the entanglement. It cleaves the two easily as the narrative is seen for what it is -- just rapidly dissipating thoughts. And the spaciousness that results allows the feeling to burn off like a fog in the morning. But if the thoughts recur, then the relief is temporary. Have you ever witnessed the certain death of an interest, similar to the "I might eventually have a woo-woo experience that reveals Oneness"? Certain death? Isn't that implying that an interest can't rise up again and seek brains for lunch?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 9:14:16 GMT -5
Yes I do think being lost in thought is normal. And yes, that is one of the many inadvertent imperfect conditionings I'm bestowing on my unfortunate children. Yes it's a great responsibility. Staying present, authentic is a real trick sometimes. Getting kids to school on time can be quite a crucible of opposing forces -- overcoming slumbering inertia, getting some substantial nutrition consumed and packed, preparing whatever last projects are necessary, sticking to the abstract strictures of a time schedule....while simultaneously being there to notice a subtle comment or expression, to stop and relax and just engage in spontaneous flow. And all that is happening in the context minds occasionally being swamped in other thoughts. Kids are incredibly resilient, adaptable, and sensitive. Still, they are and we are being shaped constantly. This is where the 'ability to respond' naturally, authentically, spontaneously is so essential and important. Respondability. And that can only come when one is unencumbered.
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Post by laughter on Nov 6, 2014 15:49:14 GMT -5
But if the thoughts recur, then the relief is temporary. Have you ever witnessed the certain death of an interest, similar to the "I might eventually have a woo-woo experience that reveals Oneness"? Certain death? Isn't that implying that an interest can't rise up again and seek brains for lunch? Ah! Welcome to hamsterville! You can look at it this way if you like .. did you have any intense interests as a kid that are completely gone? So, can you imagine a time, a state, where there is still the desire to be free of attachments but there is no longer an interest in future woo-woo or some future permanent state? There's a Niz quote that comes to mind, want me to fish it out?
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Post by laughter on Nov 6, 2014 15:55:57 GMT -5
The ones who think they know The ones who say they know The ones who don't know and want to know The ones who only know they will never know Those who guess they are not one to know The no-ones Let's not forget the one with the superpower to see the invisible man!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 3:34:53 GMT -5
Yes it's a great responsibility. Staying present, authentic is a real trick sometimes. Getting kids to school on time can be quite a crucible of opposing forces -- overcoming slumbering inertia, getting some substantial nutrition consumed and packed, preparing whatever last projects are necessary, sticking to the abstract strictures of a time schedule....while simultaneously being there to notice a subtle comment or expression, to stop and relax and just engage in spontaneous flow. And all that is happening in the context minds occasionally being swamped in other thoughts. Kids are incredibly resilient, adaptable, and sensitive. Still, they are and we are being shaped constantly. This is where the 'ability to respond' naturally, authentically, spontaneously is so essential and important. Respondability. And that can only come when one is unencumbered. I have no doubt that you are doing your best with what you've given yourself. Children just need to be loved implicitly, there is no other growth medium necessary. Authenticity is a fraudster when confronted with the love that lives in you for those children. Let us all hope that they have signed up for a long and happy life.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 9:16:34 GMT -5
Certain death? Isn't that implying that an interest can't rise up again and seek brains for lunch? Ah! Welcome to hamsterville! You can look at it this way if you like .. did you have any intense interests as a kid that are completely gone? So, can you imagine a time, a state, where there is still the desire to be free of attachments but there is no longer an interest in future woo-woo or some future permanent state? There's a Niz quote that comes to mind, want me to fish it out? I think I used to be intensely interested in being a special teams kick returner in the NFL. That is only mildly there now. Methinks getting on the equipment would cause too much cramping in itself. Also, not relishing the locker room and sideline convos. The possible literal crushing pain is not so much of a factor -- I can imagine I would be taken down fairly easily. Also old ankle and hamstring injuries are chuckling and jeering right now.... So yes let's imagine a future where this spiritual biz is just a hazy fond memory. What's mr.niz have to say?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 9:18:47 GMT -5
Yes it's a great responsibility. Staying present, authentic is a real trick sometimes. Getting kids to school on time can be quite a crucible of opposing forces -- overcoming slumbering inertia, getting some substantial nutrition consumed and packed, preparing whatever last projects are necessary, sticking to the abstract strictures of a time schedule....while simultaneously being there to notice a subtle comment or expression, to stop and relax and just engage in spontaneous flow. And all that is happening in the context minds occasionally being swamped in other thoughts. Kids are incredibly resilient, adaptable, and sensitive. Still, they are and we are being shaped constantly. This is where the 'ability to respond' naturally, authentically, spontaneously is so essential and important. Respondability. And that can only come when one is unencumbered. I have no doubt that you are doing your best with what you've given yourself. Children just need to be loved implicitly, there is no other growth medium necessary. Authenticity is a fraudster when confronted with the love that lives in you for those children. Let us all hope that they have signed up for a long and happy life. I bow to 'authenticity is a fraudster' -- that's true. It's moot.
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Post by laughter on Nov 7, 2014 13:16:57 GMT -5
Ah! Welcome to hamsterville! You can look at it this way if you like .. did you have any intense interests as a kid that are completely gone? So, can you imagine a time, a state, where there is still the desire to be free of attachments but there is no longer an interest in future woo-woo or some future permanent state? There's a Niz quote that comes to mind, want me to fish it out? I think I used to be intensely interested in being a special teams kick returner in the NFL. That is only mildly there now. Methinks getting on the equipment would cause too much cramping in itself. Also, not relishing the locker room and sideline convos. The possible literal crushing pain is not so much of a factor -- I can imagine I would be taken down fairly easily. Also old ankle and hamstring injuries are chuckling and jeering right now.... So yes let's imagine a future where this spiritual biz is just a hazy fond memory. What's mr.niz have to say? What I've read in this dialog is that you want to recognize ideas that you're attached to and be free of them, and that there is this expectation of a future woo-woo that will reveal oneness and lead to a permanent state. As far as that stated desire goes, this is what came to mind from the Niz dialogs: Q: Why should seeking end before one can realize? Niz: The desire for truth is the highest of all desires, yet it is still a desire. All desires must be given up for the real to be. Remember that you are. This is your working capital. Rotate it and there will be much profit. (from chapter 43 of "I AM THAT", "Ignorance Can Be Recognized, Not Jnana") Niz prescribes what you've heard before, and from what I've read of your experiences, what sometimes happens for you: "Remember that you are". Another version of this prescription is something along the lines of: "direct attention away from thoughts, away from abidance in mind", right? Seems to me that you're at a point now though, where you already know the truth about the nature of the individual who would direct a possessive attention, and yet you stated the desire to be free of attachments in direct self-referential terms. ... that's what Niz means by the point that "it is still a desire". Nothing new for you here, but perhaps you might reconsider the idea of effortless noticing in the context of our correspondence, relative to your orientation to all of this. The very idea that you can be free of ideas, is a bondage all it's own. === As far as disentangling the two expectations from the desire for truth, confidence in this possibility is the first step to unraveling the knot. You're honest about having having the expectation of a oneness woo-woo, and you've heard the point repetitively, from multiple sources, about the falsity of such an expectation. seeker: How am I to fight desire? There is nothing stronger. Niz: The waters of life are thundering over the rocks of objects -- desirable or hateful. Remove the rocks by insight and detachment and the same waters will flow deep, silent and swift, in greater volume and with greater power. Don't be theoretical about it; give time to thought and consideration. If you desire to be free, do not neglect the nearest step to freedom. It is like climbing a mountain -- not a step can be missed. On step less-- and the summit is not reached. (from Chapter 53 of "I AM THAT", "Desires Fulfilled Breed More Desires") Even if you had a oneness woo-woo, it would just be another desire fulfilled.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 14:23:01 GMT -5
I think I used to be intensely interested in being a special teams kick returner in the NFL. That is only mildly there now. Methinks getting on the equipment would cause too much cramping in itself. Also, not relishing the locker room and sideline convos. The possible literal crushing pain is not so much of a factor -- I can imagine I would be taken down fairly easily. Also old ankle and hamstring injuries are chuckling and jeering right now.... So yes let's imagine a future where this spiritual biz is just a hazy fond memory. What's mr.niz have to say? What I've read in this dialog is that you want to recognize ideas that you're attached to and be free of them, and that there is this expectation of a future woo-woo that will reveal oneness and lead to a permanent state. About the oneness expectation... It's not an expectation as in I expect for this bodymind to expire (a 100% certain prediction). It's not an expectation as in I expect to live a sharply witted healthy life into my 80's (a hope 'within realm of possibility'), it's not an expectation like my kids helping out with chores (a wish with moderate chance of success). It's more like saying, if I'm ever able to grok this Oneness idear it's going to have to come with real experience, something other than just conceptual/logic/mental stuff. Now it would be nice to have that experience/realization, I don't mind admitting that. Sort of like how it'd be nice to walk on the moon. But unlike the moonwalk, I don't really desire it. I'm fine with the project of knowing what I am not and neti neti and rinse repeat and let the chips fall where they may. If Oneness never authentically graces this tongue, so be it. In other words the expectation is that I'm gonna need something else before I start integrating Oneness into my spiritual puke lexicon. As far as that stated desire goes, this is what came to mind from the Niz dialogs: Q: Why should seeking end before one can realize? Niz: The desire for truth is the highest of all desires, yet it is still a desire. All desires must be given up for the real to be. Remember that you are. This is your working capital. Rotate it and there will be much profit. (from chapter 43 of "I AM THAT", "Ignorance Can Be Recognized, Not Jnana") Niz prescribes what you've heard before, and from what I've read of your experiences, what sometimes happens for you: "Remember that you are". Another version of this prescription is something along the lines of: "direct attention away from thoughts, away from abidance in mind", right? Seems to me that you're at a point now though, where you already know the truth about the nature of the individual who would direct a possessive attention, and yet you stated the desire to be free of attachments in direct self-referential terms. ... that's what Niz means by the point that "it is still a desire". Nothing new for you here, but perhaps you might reconsider the idea of effortless noticing in the context of our correspondence, relative to your orientation to all of this. The very idea that you can be free of ideas, is a bondage all it's own. === As far as disentangling the two expectations from the desire for truth, confidence in this possibility is the first step to unraveling the knot. You're honest about having having the expectation of a oneness woo-woo, and you've heard the point repetitively, from multiple sources, about the falsity of such an expectation. seeker: How am I to fight desire? There is nothing stronger. Niz: The waters of life are thundering over the rocks of objects -- desirable or hateful. Remove the rocks by insight and detachment and the same waters will flow deep, silent and swift, in greater volume and with greater power. Don't be theoretical about it; give time to thought and consideration. If you desire to be free, do not neglect the nearest step to freedom. It is like climbing a mountain -- not a step can be missed. On step less-- and the summit is not reached. (from Chapter 53 of "I AM THAT", "Desires Fulfilled Breed More Desires") Even if you had a oneness woo-woo, it would just be another desire fulfilled. For me it's more like bending spoons with the mind. I don't really strive to bend spoons with my mind. I don't really believe the claims. I'm gonna have to have direct experience as a witness or practicioner before I claim it. Same with Oneness. For peeps who claim to have realized Oneness, I politely think: whatever. And sometimes I'm not polite, which is when I squaredance with Enigma. Same with God, channeling ETs or group consciousness, conversing with trees.... What I am interested in is recognizing all that I am not. Keeping that focus. It so happens that some folks point to nonduality and Oneness as being a potential realization from that activity. Whatever. Right now neither term makes much sense to me -- in an authentic experiential way (I can see the logic though). In short, Niz's caution to not be 'theoretical about it' really is right on. Nonduality and Oneness are both theoretical, as is channeling alien group consciousness. This bears repasting Niz: The waters of life are thundering over the rocks of objects -- desirable or hateful. Remove the rocks by insight and detachment and the same waters will flow deep, silent and swift, in greater volume and with greater power. Don't be theoretical about it; give time to thought and consideration. If you desire to be free, do not neglect the nearest step to freedom. It is like climbing a mountain -- not a step can be missed. On step less-- and the summit is not reached.
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Post by laughter on Nov 7, 2014 14:33:07 GMT -5
What I've read in this dialog is that you want to recognize ideas that you're attached to and be free of them, and that there is this expectation of a future woo-woo that will reveal oneness and lead to a permanent state. About the oneness expectation... It's not an expectation as in I expect for this bodymind to expire (a 100% certain prediction). It's not an expectation as in I expect to live a sharply witted healthy life into my 80's (a hope 'within realm of possibility'), it's not an expectation like my kids helping out with chores (a wish with moderate chance of success). It's more like saying, if I'm ever able to grok this Oneness idear it's going to have to come with real experience, something other than just conceptual/logic/mental stuff. Now it would be nice to have that experience/realization, I don't mind admitting that. Sort of like how it'd be nice to walk on the moon. But unlike the moonwalk, I don't really desire it. I'm fine with the project of knowing what I am not and neti neti and rinse repeat and let the chips fall where they may. If Oneness never authentically graces this tongue, so be it. In other words the expectation is that I'm gonna need something else before I start integrating Oneness into my spiritual puke lexicon. As far as that stated desire goes, this is what came to mind from the Niz dialogs: Niz prescribes what you've heard before, and from what I've read of your experiences, what sometimes happens for you: "Remember that you are". Another version of this prescription is something along the lines of: "direct attention away from thoughts, away from abidance in mind", right? Seems to me that you're at a point now though, where you already know the truth about the nature of the individual who would direct a possessive attention, and yet you stated the desire to be free of attachments in direct self-referential terms. ... that's what Niz means by the point that "it is still a desire". Nothing new for you here, but perhaps you might reconsider the idea of effortless noticing in the context of our correspondence, relative to your orientation to all of this. The very idea that you can be free of ideas, is a bondage all it's own. === As far as disentangling the two expectations from the desire for truth, confidence in this possibility is the first step to unraveling the knot. You're honest about having having the expectation of a oneness woo-woo, and you've heard the point repetitively, from multiple sources, about the falsity of such an expectation. Even if you had a oneness woo-woo, it would just be another desire fulfilled. For me it's more like bending spoons with the mind. I don't really strive to bend spoons with my mind. I don't really believe the claims. I'm gonna have to have direct experience as a witness or practicioner before I claim it. Same with Oneness. For peeps who claim to have realized Oneness, I politely think: whatever. And sometimes I'm not polite, which is when I squaredance with Enigma. Same with God, channeling ETs or group consciousness, conversing with trees.... What I am interested in is recognizing all that I am not. Keeping that focus. It so happens that some folks point to nonduality and Oneness as being a potential realization from that activity. Whatever. Right now neither term makes much sense to me -- in an authentic experiential way (I can see the logic though). In short, Niz's caution to not be 'theoretical about it' really is right on. Nonduality and Oneness are both theoretical, as is channeling alien group consciousness. This bears repasting Niz: The waters of life are thundering over the rocks of objects -- desirable or hateful. Remove the rocks by insight and detachment and the same waters will flow deep, silent and swift, in greater volume and with greater power. Don't be theoretical about it; give time to thought and consideration. If you desire to be free, do not neglect the nearest step to freedom. It is like climbing a mountain -- not a step can be missed. On step less-- and the summit is not reached. Missouri is bounded. There is no Missouri.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 14:41:40 GMT -5
About the oneness expectation... It's not an expectation as in I expect for this bodymind to expire (a 100% certain prediction). It's not an expectation as in I expect to live a sharply witted healthy life into my 80's (a hope 'within realm of possibility'), it's not an expectation like my kids helping out with chores (a wish with moderate chance of success). It's more like saying, if I'm ever able to grok this Oneness idear it's going to have to come with real experience, something other than just conceptual/logic/mental stuff. Now it would be nice to have that experience/realization, I don't mind admitting that. Sort of like how it'd be nice to walk on the moon. But unlike the moonwalk, I don't really desire it. I'm fine with the project of knowing what I am not and neti neti and rinse repeat and let the chips fall where they may. If Oneness never authentically graces this tongue, so be it. In other words the expectation is that I'm gonna need something else before I start integrating Oneness into my spiritual puke lexicon. For me it's more like bending spoons with the mind. I don't really strive to bend spoons with my mind. I don't really believe the claims. I'm gonna have to have direct experience as a witness or practicioner before I claim it. Same with Oneness. For peeps who claim to have realized Oneness, I politely think: whatever. And sometimes I'm not polite, which is when I squaredance with Enigma. Same with God, channeling ETs or group consciousness, conversing with trees.... What I am interested in is recognizing all that I am not. Keeping that focus. It so happens that some folks point to nonduality and Oneness as being a potential realization from that activity. Whatever. Right now neither term makes much sense to me -- in an authentic experiential way (I can see the logic though). In short, Niz's caution to not be 'theoretical about it' really is right on. Nonduality and Oneness are both theoretical, as is channeling alien group consciousness. This bears repasting Niz: The waters of life are thundering over the rocks of objects -- desirable or hateful. Remove the rocks by insight and detachment and the same waters will flow deep, silent and swift, in greater volume and with greater power. Don't be theoretical about it; give time to thought and consideration. If you desire to be free, do not neglect the nearest step to freedom. It is like climbing a mountain -- not a step can be missed. On step less-- and the summit is not reached. Missouri is bounded. There is no Missouri. hehe that's good I like that. But as our bearded martial arts curmudgeon would protest... Actually there is a Missori too, and it is bounded, and there all sorts of people there driving around with show me on their license plates. But right, different context. I also get that and am not so stubborn as to deny the importance of context, unlike the one not mentioned. The point is, that Oneness, as used by me, is bounded. And I know, by definition, this makes my use of it wrong (though immensely popular). And so I wait for the day when perhaps I use it as a natural expression pointing towards that which is unbounded yada yada. But I make no pretensions that this is how I use it now.
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Post by relinquish on Nov 7, 2014 18:10:10 GMT -5
Missouri is bounded. There is no Missouri. hehe that's good I like that. But as our bearded martial arts curmudgeon would protest... Actually there is a Missori too, and it is bounded, and there all sorts of people there driving around with show me on their license plates. But right, different context. I also get that and am not so stubborn as to deny the importance of context, unlike the one not mentioned. The point is, that Oneness, as used by me, is bounded. And I know, by definition, this makes my use of it wrong (though immensely popular). And so I wait for the day when perhaps I use it as a natural expression pointing towards that which is unbounded yada yada. But I make no pretensions that this is how I use it now. What makes Oneness bounded for you?
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Post by laughter on Nov 7, 2014 19:40:08 GMT -5
Missouri is bounded. There is no Missouri. hehe that's good I like that. But as our bearded martial arts curmudgeon would protest... Actually there is a Missori too, and it is bounded, and there all sorts of people there driving around with show me on their license plates. But right, different context. I also get that and am not so stubborn as to deny the importance of context, unlike the one not mentioned. The point is, that Oneness, as used by me, is bounded. And I know, by definition, this makes my use of it wrong (though immensely popular). And so I wait for the day when perhaps I use it as a natural expression pointing towards that which is unbounded yada yada. But I make no pretensions that this is how I use it now. It's a bit of a straightjacket of your own tailoring that I can't relate to based on direct experience, but I can definitely say that the expectation of some experience or special state of detachment is something worth confronting. Get your desire for the truth unclouded by desires for anything else. See the false as false. A permanent state of experience is a falsity. If you do eventually have some oneness woo-woo, it will be your oneness woo-woo, and any expectation based on descriptions of others will pretty much almost ensure that you won't have it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 11:10:39 GMT -5
hehe that's good I like that. But as our bearded martial arts curmudgeon would protest... Actually there is a Missori too, and it is bounded, and there all sorts of people there driving around with show me on their license plates. But right, different context. I also get that and am not so stubborn as to deny the importance of context, unlike the one not mentioned. The point is, that Oneness, as used by me, is bounded. And I know, by definition, this makes my use of it wrong (though immensely popular). And so I wait for the day when perhaps I use it as a natural expression pointing towards that which is unbounded yada yada. But I make no pretensions that this is how I use it now. What makes Oneness bounded for you? Whereas the pointer 'nonduality' points away from the conceptual stuff and subject/object split, and whereas the reason the question 'do I exist?' is fundamentally absurd, and whereas 'you are what you seek' is a pointer pointing to that which is 'closer than close,' closer than a single thought, 'Oneness,' also, a pointer, is not something that resonates for me as an accurate label or even signpost despite seeing it's logical derivation with respect to nonduality. It's not a big deal, though. Skepticism + imagination + the ignition of "Oneness" is a rocket propellant worthy of interstellar travel. But whereas oneness has something to say about the dark side of the moon, I don't. So, for me, Oneness is bounded by conception and imagination. This, knowing that it's use by believers/realizers is as a pointer towards nonconceptual awareness. That it is not known within the constraints of the mind. That nonconceptual awareness is the medium by which mind is informed with the term 'Oneness.' I understand all that. I'm just saying that Oneness doesn't crop up in that scenario. It is, as yet, still just conceptual. It is not a result of mind being informed by anything other than conceptual mind stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 11:16:38 GMT -5
hehe that's good I like that. But as our bearded martial arts curmudgeon would protest... Actually there is a Missori too, and it is bounded, and there all sorts of people there driving around with show me on their license plates. But right, different context. I also get that and am not so stubborn as to deny the importance of context, unlike the one not mentioned. The point is, that Oneness, as used by me, is bounded. And I know, by definition, this makes my use of it wrong (though immensely popular). And so I wait for the day when perhaps I use it as a natural expression pointing towards that which is unbounded yada yada. But I make no pretensions that this is how I use it now. It's a bit of a straightjacket of your own tailoring that I can't relate to based on direct experience, but I can definitely say that the expectation of some experience or special state of detachment is something worth confronting. Get your desire for the truth unclouded by desires for anything else. See the false as false. A permanent state of experience is a falsity. If you do eventually have some oneness woo-woo, it will be your oneness woo-woo, and any expectation based on descriptions of others will pretty much almost ensure that you won't have it. Just to be clear, and to restate, I'm not looking for a Oneness Experience or Realization. I'm just saying that I'm not moved to use the term 'Oneness' to describe anything without such an experience/realization. And this lack of movement -- could be a refusal -- is tightly entwined with a desire for truth. I want to know what is the case, period. Good health be damned. I say the latter because it is my hunch that Oneness and God Realizations probably lead to good health (a la Schoonmaker). But that's not what I'm interested in. Know what is not, and let the chips fall where they may. So far there ain't no Oneness chip showing up.
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