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Post by enigma on Oct 19, 2014 13:24:01 GMT -5
IF that were true, then saving somebody the effort of years of improper meditation would be a good thingy, right? I suppose. But I'm sure he'd say why cry over spilt milk. Once a person has an insight or revelation, it just doesn't matter anymore, because the insight/revelation dissolves time. It's like an instantaneous healing, of sorts. He's the only one to decide whether or not to punish himself for not having the insight/revelation any sooner...which means he didn't learn squat if that happens (he decides he deserves punishment). Nobody's suggesting he should cry or punish himself. Insights/revelations don't dissolve time in that way.
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 13:26:19 GMT -5
I suppose. But I'm sure he'd say why cry over spilt milk. Once a person has an insight or revelation, it just doesn't matter anymore, because the insight/revelation dissolves time. It's like an instantaneous healing, of sorts. He's the only one to decide whether or not to punish himself for not having the insight/revelation any sooner...which means he didn't learn squat if that happens (he decides he deserves punishment). Nobody's suggesting he should cry or punish himself.Insights/revelations don't dissolve time in that way. That's been my recent experience(s)....although I don't know what YOU mean by 'don't dissolve time in that way.'
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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2014 13:28:06 GMT -5
What you wrote was this: If someone is personally identified, then they take themselves to be a person, and the bottom line on that is that however a person defines themselves, then they by necessity define something else that isn't them. From other correspondence on this forum, it seems that the question of whether or not they take themselves to be separate from what they're not often involves nuance, complexity and denial. Generally and honestly speaking, if someone defines themselves as a person, then there is some sort of sense of separation going on. I am as yet unable to make complete sense - if any - about this separate person issue - I don't think that you or I have arrived at the place where it can be explained in any precise manner - you and I are posting separate posts on this forum. That much I do know. eta - I remain unconcerned over this issue - if it's something that I'll have an insight/revelation over, I await. Bottom line is that a sense of separation is built-in to the phenomena of personal identification. Most of the focus of the teachers reviewed on Shaun's site, the eight-fold path, Dzogchen, Adya, Tolle, etc... have this as a primary focus.
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Post by enigma on Oct 19, 2014 13:29:30 GMT -5
Nobody's suggesting he should cry or punish himself.Insights/revelations don't dissolve time in that way. That's been my recent experience(s)....although I don't know what YOU mean by 'don't dissolve time in that way.' They don't make you forget years of meditation or make that time irrelevant.
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 13:34:03 GMT -5
That's been my recent experience(s)....although I don't know what YOU mean by 'don't dissolve time in that way.' They don't make you forget years of meditation or make that time irrelevant. I can only speak to my own experience and that is, the revelation was so amazing, if/when one were to ask me about so-called wasted time or years, I'd say - who cares! I guess because I'm here now. I don't understand because it seems to me that you're the type who would say that time IS irrelevant. *shrug*
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 13:35:42 GMT -5
I am as yet unable to make complete sense - if any - about this separate person issue - I don't think that you or I have arrived at the place where it can be explained in any precise manner - you and I are posting separate posts on this forum. That much I do know. eta - I remain unconcerned over this issue - if it's something that I'll have an insight/revelation over, I await. Bottom line is that a sense of separation is built-in to the phenomena of personal identification. Most of the focus of the teachers reviewed on Shaun's site, the eight-fold path, Dzogchen, Adya, Tolle, etc... have this as a primary focus. Well, I respectfully reply 'goody for them!' I may realize this thingy, this lesson and not know it, or I may only half know it or maybe I don't and never will know it...and am ok wit dat.
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Post by enigma on Oct 19, 2014 13:45:00 GMT -5
They don't make you forget years of meditation or make that time irrelevant. I can only speak to my own experience and that is, the revelation was so amazing, if/when one were to ask me about so-called wasted time or years, I'd say - who cares! I guess because I'm here now. I don't understand because it seems to me that you're the type who would say that time IS irrelevant. *shrug* Is time irrelevant when you're waiting in line at the Post Office?
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 13:53:59 GMT -5
I can only speak to my own experience and that is, the revelation was so amazing, if/when one were to ask me about so-called wasted time or years, I'd say - who cares! I guess because I'm here now. I don't understand because it seems to me that you're the type who would say that time IS irrelevant. *shrug* Is time irrelevant when you're waiting in line at the Post Office? I haven't had to do that in a coon's age. I've made some pretty decent strides in this time business lately. Waiting isn't anywhere near the big deal it used to be.
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Post by laughter on Oct 19, 2014 14:03:02 GMT -5
Bottom line is that a sense of separation is built-in to the phenomena of personal identification. Most of the focus of the teachers reviewed on Shaun's site, the eight-fold path, Dzogchen, Adya, Tolle, etc... have this as a primary focus. Well, I respectfully reply 'goody for them!' I may realize this thingy, this lesson and not know it, or I may only half know it or maybe I don't and never will know it...and am ok wit dat. Being ok with the sense of separation is being ok with suffering ... sort of an oxymoron. One can pretend to be ok with suffering, but suffer they do ...
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 14:18:16 GMT -5
If I don't get it yet, I don't get it -- but it's also conceivable that I get it but not on the surface.
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Post by justlikeyou on Oct 19, 2014 14:37:36 GMT -5
Waiting isn't anywhere near the big deal it used to be. Waiting, in line, in traffic, anywhere, is a great opportunity to look within and see what attitude is there in those situations. Done with enough consistency the seeing alone is enough to lessen the grip and effect a resistive attitude has on you, and could perhaps even change your mind about such things. For example, impatience at waiting can turn to simple enjoyment of the moment, for you, and perhaps even for those around you, like when in a long cashier line, etc. I often have fun with strangers in long waits. Sometimes even cool and meaningful conversations. And if nothing else, for me anyway, there is no boredom, because from this POV, there is never nothing going on.
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Post by figgles on Oct 19, 2014 15:29:51 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with that particular interpretation, tbh. Why say it, if it isn't cool -- which to me, means exactly what it says -- isn't it all about acceptance of where someone 'is'? "Wherever you go, there you are" isn't a suggestion to take yourself to be a person separate from everything you're not, so that in whatever location or whatever state you find yourself to be, well, that's just fine and dandy. If someone takes themselves to be a separate person and is suffering, that will likely spark their interest in spirituality to begin with. "Wherever you go, there you are" is meant to bring to the attention of the listener the idea that they can't outrun themselves, or even, their life situation. It's a call to stop looking to the future, the past or some other place or situation for inner peace. Taking oneself to be a separate person is a prerequisite to suffering. The good news is that if this is what one takes themselves to be, there's lots of stuff they can do, and lots of effort they can make. I think you've taken Silver's meaning to be different than what it was. (correct me if I"m wrong Silver...), but, I think she was simply saying, wherever one is in terms of position along (the pathless) path, it's all good...you are where you are, and there is never 'wrongness' in that, unless you are holding to preconceived notions or ideas about where you 'should' be, kinda thing. You are focused upon the word 'person' and what that word always means to you, (identification with separation), when I think Silver was just using it to mean 'individual' or 'one'.
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Post by figgles on Oct 19, 2014 15:39:41 GMT -5
If I don't get it yet, I don't get it -- but it's also conceivable that I get it but not on the surface. I think you get it just fine. What happened was you used the word 'person'. Laffy automatically correlates that word with 'identification with separation,' so he figured you were saying that if identification with separation (and therefore, suffering) is happening, it's okay...when actually, I think you were just trying to say something along the line of; in terms of spirituality, whatever juncture you happen to be at, it's all good.....?
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Post by silver on Oct 19, 2014 17:18:22 GMT -5
"Wherever you go, there you are" isn't a suggestion to take yourself to be a person separate from everything you're not, so that in whatever location or whatever state you find yourself to be, well, that's just fine and dandy. If someone takes themselves to be a separate person and is suffering, that will likely spark their interest in spirituality to begin with. "Wherever you go, there you are" is meant to bring to the attention of the listener the idea that they can't outrun themselves, or even, their life situation. It's a call to stop looking to the future, the past or some other place or situation for inner peace. Taking oneself to be a separate person is a prerequisite to suffering. The good news is that if this is what one takes themselves to be, there's lots of stuff they can do, and lots of effort they can make. I think you've taken Silver's meaning to be different than what it was. (correct me if I"m wrong Silver...), but, I think she was simply saying, wherever one is in terms of position along (the pathless) path, it's all good...you are where you are, and there is never 'wrongness' in that, unless you are holding to preconceived notions or ideas about where you 'should' be, kinda thing. You are focused upon the word 'person' and what that word always means to you, (identification with separation), when I think Silver was just using it to mean 'individual' or 'one'. Yeah, it sounds like you get my meaning...I would never - at this point anyway - say the word person and have it to mean anything beyond the typical average person when they use the word person. Um, I think that this personhood business is a little - or a lot fussy...unnecessarily so. I think it's something that comes along perhaps a little later in the game or path or whatev, and it's not essential to the refinement of one's own path, because I think it's probably like riding a bike, one day you just take off, learn that balance that it takes to not fall over, ha ha. Unless it doesn't! (*silver snortle*)
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Post by figgles on Oct 19, 2014 17:58:09 GMT -5
I think you've taken Silver's meaning to be different than what it was. (correct me if I"m wrong Silver...), but, I think she was simply saying, wherever one is in terms of position along (the pathless) path, it's all good...you are where you are, and there is never 'wrongness' in that, unless you are holding to preconceived notions or ideas about where you 'should' be, kinda thing. You are focused upon the word 'person' and what that word always means to you, (identification with separation), when I think Silver was just using it to mean 'individual' or 'one'. Yeah, it sounds like you get my meaning.. .I would never - at this point anyway - say the word person and have it to mean anything beyond the typical average person when they use the word person. Um, I think that this personhood business is a little - or a lot fussy...unnecessarily so. I think it's something that comes along perhaps a little later in the game or path or whatev, and it's not essential to the refinement of one's own path, because I think it's probably like riding a bike, one day you just take off, learn that balance that it takes to not fall over, ha ha. Unless it doesn't! (*silver snortle*)
Yes, that's what I figured...and really, as I see it, there is no need to get to a point where that word necessarily becomes synonymous with "identification with separation." hehe, If that happens...it just might be a sign that a pointer has been turned into a delicious lollipop.
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