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Post by tzujanli on Sept 21, 2014 11:43:19 GMT -5
The ocean didn't fall on the lawn yesterday, raindrops did.. there were no whales or lobsters in those drops, that simplicity doesn't play well to the mind's desire for self-importance.. it is what it is, raindrops are not oceans and oceans are not raindrops, except in the mind's imagination.. Let's just stay in one metaphor for a second...drops and ocean. Just for a second. If you remove the ocean, where are the drops? If you remove the drops, where is the ocean? It's just a simple little metaphor that nicely describes non-separation. Expanding the metaphor like you did makes for a much more complex conversation. In my experience, complexity moves further away from seeing something as simple as non-separation. Then we get to start talking about how fundamentally rain is no different than our bodies which are fundamentally no different than the cosmos. Lots of fodder for debate there. The ocean metaphor, in its simplicity, points to something that can ring true in our hearts. It's below-the-neck stuff. I didn't 'expand the metaphor', i clarified it.. drops are drops, that's why we have a word for drops.. oceans are oceans, that's why we have a word for ocean.. and, if a drop falls in the ocean, can you find it? You want things to be the way you want them to be, rather than the way they are.. so you create illusions about drops and oceans.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 11:46:20 GMT -5
Maybe some day you'll expand on that, eh? Meanwhile... I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2014 11:53:53 GMT -5
Let's just stay in one metaphor for a second...drops and ocean. Just for a second. If you remove the ocean, where are the drops? If you remove the drops, where is the ocean? It's just a simple little metaphor that nicely describes non-separation. Expanding the metaphor like you did makes for a much more complex conversation. In my experience, complexity moves further away from seeing something as simple as non-separation. Then we get to start talking about how fundamentally rain is no different than our bodies which are fundamentally no different than the cosmos. Lots of fodder for debate there. The ocean metaphor, in its simplicity, points to something that can ring true in our hearts. It's below-the-neck stuff. I didn't 'expand the metaphor', i clarified it.. drops are drops, that's why we have a word for drops.. oceans are oceans, that's why we have a word for ocean.. and, if a drop falls in the ocean, can you find it? You want things to be the way you want them to be, rather than the way they are.. so you create illusions about drops and oceans. Ok. Apparently that metaphor doesn't ring any bells for you.
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2014 11:59:54 GMT -5
Maybe some day you'll expand on that, eh? Meanwhile... I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
Well, you have a point. "Everything" is pretty expansive. I'll take that as a 'no thanks'.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 12:05:29 GMT -5
I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
Well, you have a point. "Everything" is pretty expansive. I'll take that as a 'no thanks'. Oh dear...
You've never heard the expression in a heart to heart moment?
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Post by silver on Sept 21, 2014 12:08:17 GMT -5
We need words -- more words, seymour, ha ha ha.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 12:09:37 GMT -5
We need words -- more words, seymour, ha ha ha.
That did make me laugh!
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 12:15:28 GMT -5
Maybe some day you'll expand on that, eh? Meanwhile... I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
The hologram metaphor is used by those who see themselves as persons, but want to see themselves as containing everything within them. It's a self delusion based on a self delusion.
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Post by quinn on Sept 21, 2014 12:18:31 GMT -5
Well, you have a point. "Everything" is pretty expansive. I'll take that as a 'no thanks'. Oh dear...
You've never heard the expression in a heart to heart moment?
Haha! Silver nailed it. Yes, Seymour - that's what the Meanwhile... was about. Still...words are good too.
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Post by silver on Sept 21, 2014 12:19:11 GMT -5
I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
The hologram metaphor is used by those who see themselves as persons, but want to see themselves as containing everything within them. It's a self delusion based on a self delusion. Hmm. I thought at one point, you said something to the effect that we are a part of it all and all is a part of us?
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Post by justlikeyou on Sept 21, 2014 12:21:00 GMT -5
Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. But unlike the Unlimited, we exist here and now in both the limitations of duality AND unlimited non-duality, whereas the Unlimited is at all limited. That appears to make us different in some distinct ways from the Unlimited, no?
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2014 12:23:06 GMT -5
The hologram metaphor is used by those who see themselves as persons, but want to see themselves as containing everything within them. It's a self delusion based on a self delusion. Hmm. I thought at one point, you said something to the effect that we are a part of it all and all is a part of us? Gnaw, I'm pretty sure I didn't.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2014 12:24:48 GMT -5
The still, deep ocean is one manifestation but contains, surface disturbances like waves, drops and spray that are small, time-bound, unique expressions of the one ocean, even as they are constitutionally identical with the ocean, while the ocean, in its absolute depth and wholeness, can not be said to be a limited expression. So, it can be said that the drop is ocean while it can not be said that the ocean is the drop, even if compositionally identical. Same but different, no? And if not, why not? Well, part of infinity cannot be other than infinity itself. Not just constitutionally identical. The metaphor of the drop separate from the ocean is not a metaphor for the infinite because the drop is physically separate from the ocean, and the metaphor is a physical one. Though perhaps the wave is a good metaphor. The wave is not other than the ocean in motion. The physical distinction is arbitrary as there's no place where the ocean ends and the wave begins, so there's no real temptation to say the wave is not the ocean itself. Agreed. The wave/ocean metaphor is much easier to grasp than the droplet/ocean. That's why I often use the hand/wrist/arm metaphor. People can see that the idea of separation is just an idea much more easily when "things" do not appear to be physically separate. Alan Watts had a lot of good examples of this, and I always liked the question he posed to students, "Where does your fist GO when you open your hand?" Ha ha.
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Post by silver on Sept 21, 2014 12:25:13 GMT -5
Hmm. I thought at one point, you said something to the effect that we are a part of it all and all is a part of us? Gnaw, I'm pretty sure I didn't. Mm, okay then...it gets confusing around here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 12:29:41 GMT -5
I did expand on it. It means everything to me.
Meanwhile...
The hologram metaphor is used by those who see themselves as persons, but want to see themselves as containing everything within them. It's a self delusion based on a self delusion. Really?
(Sorry about the delayed response. I'm a not so secret Packers fan, and the Lions just scored on them, so the family is phone bombing me with texts right now...)
You sure it's not because all you have to talk about is your own conversation?
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