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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 11:42:12 GMT -5
But this last line here, it's easily misinterpreted by a people-peep as implying that "the natural state" is personal, and subjective. As far as teaching and teachers go, generally, perhaps a better paraphrase of the cliche might be that "when the seeker is sincere, the catalyst appears". For some seekers the catalyst might appear as a "teacher", but I'd opine that genuine sincerity can't last long. Yes, easily misinterpreted. That's why it is important to always come back to this basic fact: you are what you are. Some are aware of it, some are not. But that has no impact on this basic fact. I agree, so it would probably be more productive to think of teachers and teachings in terms of indicators that accompany certain perspectives or stages instead of seeing them as causes or initiators. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 11:46:45 GMT -5
But this last line here, it's easily misinterpreted by a people-peep as implying that "the natural state" is personal, and subjective. As far as teaching and teachers go, generally, perhaps a better paraphrase of the cliche might be that "when the seeker is sincere, the catalyst appears". For some seekers the catalyst might appear as a "teacher", but I'd opine that genuine sincerity can't last long. UG says that he is in the natural state and moreover it is his natural state and not someone else's. How much more subjective can you get than that? It's a perceptual thing after all. That's why SR is just a recognition of what has always been so. There's nothing accomplished, nothing newly acquired in terms of skills or knowledge. Just a re-cognition of something utterly familiar. |
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 12:06:55 GMT -5
Ramana and UG or any other sage can't teach you more than a flower in your garden or a bird in a tree or a raindrop on your skin could teach you. You are what you are after all. Or you could say, put the attention on breath. There's a teaching right there. Who Am I? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 12:16:56 GMT -5
Ramana and UG or any other sage can't teach you more than a flower in your garden or a bird in a tree or a raindrop on your skin could teach you. You are what you are after all. Or you could say, put the attention on breath. There's a teaching right there. Who Am I? Is putting your attention on your breath something natural? Is asking "Who am I?" natural? Zhuangzi used to make fun of this stuff. |
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 12:22:24 GMT -5
Or you could say, put the attention on breath. There's a teaching right there. Who Am I? Is putting your attention on your breath something natural? Is asking "Who am I?" natural? Zhuangzi used to make fun of this stuff. Do you think Ramana thought, I'm Self realized but I'll teach self inquiry because I'm bored sitting in this ashram all day long? I've always made fun of Zhuangzi! |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 12:25:43 GMT -5
Is putting your attention on your breath something natural? Is asking "Who am I?" natural? Zhuangzi used to make fun of this stuff. Do you think Ramana thought, I'm Self realized but I'll teach self inquiry because I'm bored sitting in this ashram all day long? I've always made fun of Zhuangzi! I have no idea what Ramana was thinking, but according to A-H, Ramana wanted to conform to so badly to the established standard behavior guidelines of a good guru that he eventually got cancer. |
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 12:29:29 GMT -5
Do you think Ramana thought, I'm Self realized but I'll teach self inquiry because I'm bored sitting in this ashram all day long? I've always made fun of Zhuangzi! I have no idea what Ramana was thinking, but according to A-H, Ramana wanted to conform to so badly to the established standard behavior guidelines of a good guru that he eventually got cancer. That's hilarious, but all I know about A-H is that they are the first eight letters of the alphabet. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 21:57:56 GMT -5
I have no idea what Ramana was thinking, but according to A-H, Ramana wanted to conform to so badly to the established standard behavior guidelines of a good guru that he eventually got cancer. , but all I know about A-H is that they are the first eight letters of the alphabet. I had the exact same reaction when I first heard it.  |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 22:19:08 GMT -5
I cannot help you (2)
Q: Do you mean to say that if I stop seeking, a change will take place in me?
UG: Yes, it will. And when I've said "Yes, it will," then what? What good is mý assurance to you? It is no good at all — it is utterly worthless — so you don't listen to me or anybody. Listening to other people is what you've been doing all your life — it's the cause of your unhappiness. You are unique. There is no reason for your wanting to be like another chap. You can't be like him, anyway. This wanting — wanting to listen, wanting to understand, wanting to be like such-and-such an individual — has come about because society is interested in creating a perfect man; but there is no such thing as a perfect man — this is our problem. All we can do is be ourselves, and no one can help you be that. He can teach you how to ski or fix a motor car, but he cannot teach you anything important.
Q: Not even Buddha or Christ?
UG: Why do you bother about those fellows? They are dead. You should pitch them in the river. And yet you don't; you keep listening to someone (it makes no difference whom), and you keep hoping that somehow, tomorrow or the next day, by listening more and more, you will get off the merry-go-round. You listen to your parents and to your teachers at school, and they tell you to be good and dutiful and not be angry and so on, and that doesn't do any good, and so you go and learn how to do Yoga, and then presently some old chap comes along and tells you to be choicelessly aware. Or maybe you find someone in the 'holy business', and he does miracles — he produces some trinkets out of the air, and you fall for it — or perhaps he touches you, and you see some blue light or green light or yellow light or God knows what, and you hope he will help you experience enlightenment. But he cannot help you. It is not something that can be captured, contained or given expression to. I do not know if you see the utter helplessness of the situation, and how, if anyone thinks he can help you, he will inevitably mislead you, and the less phoney he is, the more powerful he is, the more enlightened he is, the more misery and mischief he will create for you.
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 22:41:26 GMT -5
What I find interesting about what UG says on the futility of teaching is that he is totally correct while at the same time being utterly wrong.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 22:56:18 GMT -5
What I find interesting about what UG says on the futility of teaching is that he is totally correct while at the same time being utterly wrong. Agreed. The way I see it, you cannot teach someone the natural state, but you certainly can teach someone methods of alignment. What's your take? |
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 23:05:10 GMT -5
What I find interesting about what UG says on the futility of teaching is that he is totally correct while at the same time being utterly wrong. Agreed. The way I see it, you cannot teach someone the natural state, but you certainly can teach someone methods of alignment. What's your take? I agree you cannot teach someone the natural state. You can only point to something that may open one up to it. The first point to make is that a teaching cannot be seen in isolation. Any teaching depends on who is receiving it and if the student is not receptive then the teaching is indeed futile. That poses the question, why was UG receptive, willing and tolerant of those who came to him to ask questions if he felt so strongly that he had nothing to offer? Why did he tolerate the entourage of people around him if there was nothing to teach. What motivated him. Why didn't he just keep silent. Why did he speak about it and write books about it? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 23:36:20 GMT -5
Agreed. The way I see it, you cannot teach someone the natural state, but you certainly can teach someone methods of alignment. What's your take? I agree you cannot teach someone the natural state. You can only point to something that may open one up to it. The first point to make is that a teaching cannot be seen in isolation. Any teaching depends on who is receiving it and if the student is not receptive then the teaching is indeed futile. That poses the question, why was UG receptive, willing and tolerant of those who came to him to ask questions if he felt so strongly that he had nothing to offer? Why did he tolerate the entourage of people around him if there was nothing to teach. What motivated him. Why didn't he just keep silent. Why did he speak about it and write books about it?Like Niz, UG never wrote a book as far as I know. Ramana did though. UG would probably say that replying to questions directed at him is something automatic, similar to when you throw a ball against the wall and it bounces back. The wall has no agenda and neither does UG. You throw questions at him, and they bounce back. |
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Post by satchitananda on Sept 28, 2019 23:39:45 GMT -5
You throw questions at him, and they bounce back. There is another side to it, what you might call the bodhisattva principle. The desire for all beings to be liberated. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 28, 2019 23:47:46 GMT -5
You throw questions at him, and they bounce back. There is another side to it, what you might call the bodhisattva principle. The desire for all beings to be liberated. I'm pretty sure if this would come up in a dialog with UG that he would put this into the 'poppycôck' category. But then again, people who actually spent some time with him reported that UG actually did care about others. |
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