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Post by laughter on Sept 8, 2014 11:32:29 GMT -5
UG: *stare* ( thinking to himself: If there is any individual in this world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much sadhana, seven years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take it. If I can't take it, who can take it? How arrogant he is! Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he has? What is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole gang -- were in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but that chap is like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others say or what he is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is doing. What is there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born from parents. He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some people say something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is there: What is that state? I must find out what that state is. Nobody can give that state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a compass, without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find out for myself what the state is in which that man is.) Wow. Hey Reefs, Does this sound familiar, or what?  |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 8, 2014 12:02:11 GMT -5
And while I can don, (and have at one point in my life insisted upon donning) the perspective where I too can see volition from that vantage point where true and false, actual vs. illusion is of importance, there's no longer the propensity for that. (hehe..some will cringe as they read this..but) It's the difference between having feet firmly planted at 'no mountain' vs. coming full circle. AT full circle, both perspectives can be seen, and there is a fundamental seamless to the entirety of experience, but there's no longer any 'pull' to adhere to a perspective that takes us beyond the present moment of experience. Thus, the idea of no volition no longer has the essence of 'truthiness' or sense of importance that it once did.Am I correct Tzu, that like me, you also at one point in your life were seeing predominantly from the 'no mountain' vantage point? I seem to recall reading that at one time..? According to Tzu, volition is truth. Tzu's still mind sees separate volitional persons. According to Tzu, the non-dualists choose to deny volition while he chooses to acknowledge volition. He insists on volition being true and not just an idea. He doesn't just say that there is choosing happening, he insists that there is actually a separate volitional person deliberately choosing. That's the opposite of "no longer having the essence of truthiness or sense of importance". Volition is at the basis of his still mind belief system. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 8, 2014 12:05:37 GMT -5
UG: *stare* ( thinking to himself: If there is any individual in this world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much sadhana, seven years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take it. If I can't take it, who can take it? How arrogant he is! Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he has? What is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole gang -- were in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but that chap is like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others say or what he is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is doing. What is there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born from parents. He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some people say something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is there: What is that state? I must find out what that state is. Nobody can give that state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a compass, without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find out for myself what the state is in which that man is.) Wow. Hey Reefs, Does this sound familiar, or what? Well, yes!  |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Sept 8, 2014 12:06:57 GMT -5
No worries, dear figgles. You seem to want to validate realization from your mind and are perfectly free to do so. Actually, there's an absence of a sense of 'wanting to' validate anything. And in terms of absences, it's one that makes a world of difference. Again, 'wanting to' maintain something or do something or see things in a particular way, is no longer the case. It was at one point, but that's dropped away. When it was there, I very much insisted (as you do) upon saying that the perspective of backing up through the boundary to see the individuated perspective for what it is, was 'truth'. When the wanting to see things a certain way falls away, there is JUST THIS. No need to say much 'about' it, because 'just this' at face value, is perfectly fine. You seem to think it's important to see from the 'backed up' vantage point where the individuated perspective is seen for what it is. What's behind that sense of importance? And can you see that there may be a point where that sense of importance falls away? & if so, can you see how within that falling away, there would be no sense of 'wanting' to see things in any particular way? I have seen that, and I can still see that. Perspectives can be donned, and then let go. But no, you are correct, there is no longer any 'Desire' to see solely from that perspective. When the desire goes, individuated perspective happens, or not, and there's no judgment anymore that arises regarding that.  Oh, OK. So, you're ultimate aim on the message board is to just one up! Noted. Is it that important to you? In the context of this message board, the distinction between Truth pointing and simply playing out day-to-day roles in the existential dream (and/or getting caught up in it) is kinda the point. From beyond any context, what is is all just happening in awareness, including perspectives/distinctions/contextualization/etc. If you have a problem with that, OK, there you go, you have a problem. How is the problem dissolved and what remains? |
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Post by figgles on Sept 8, 2014 12:10:20 GMT -5
And while I can don, (and have at one point in my life insisted upon donning) the perspective where I too can see volition from that vantage point where true and false, actual vs. illusion is of importance, there's no longer the propensity for that. (hehe..some will cringe as they read this..but) It's the difference between having feet firmly planted at 'no mountain' vs. coming full circle. AT full circle, both perspectives can be seen, and there is a fundamental seamless to the entirety of experience, but there's no longer any 'pull' to adhere to a perspective that takes us beyond the present moment of experience. Thus, the idea of no volition no longer has the essence of 'truthiness' or sense of importance that it once did.Am I correct Tzu, that like me, you also at one point in your life were seeing predominantly from the 'no mountain' vantage point? I seem to recall reading that at one time..? According to Tzu, volition is truth. Tzu's still mind sees separate volitional persons. According to Tzu, the non-dualists choose to deny volition while he chooses to acknowledge volition. He insists on volition being true and not just an idea. He doesn't just say that there is choosing happening, he insists that there is actually a separate volitional person deliberately choosing. That's the opposite of "no longer having the essence of truthiness or sense of importance". Volition is at the basis of his still mind belief system. Obviously Tzu can clarify himself, however, I only see him invoking the word truth inasmuch that truth = what happens at face value, absent the spinning of stories about that. He does not seem to concern himself with 'truth' beyond the present moment experience. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 8, 2014 12:13:17 GMT -5
Wow. Hey Reefs, Does this sound familiar, or what? Well, yes!  |
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Post by figgles on Sept 8, 2014 12:25:06 GMT -5
Oh, OK. So, you're ultimate aim on the message board is to just one up! Noted. Is it that important to you? It aint about one upping. If I had to put into words, my aim is to play the part of devil's advocate..a voice of challenge....of providing the reminder not to get too attached to ANY idea as truth, even if that idea appears to be the catalyst to a very beneficial state of being...to keep going in terms of the seeing through of stories and ideas....to refrain from resting too long in one concrete 'truth' , in case you take up permanent residence there. And yes, if one is still 'lost in the dream' unaware of the fact that he is being governed by belief and attachment to a set identity and storyline, then the pointing is important. But surely there are many (most I'd say) here who are beyond being fully unconscious and immersed in the story of 'me' , and yet, the pointing still goes on and on as though it's still a very, very important thing to see. part of my message is that; That sense of importance is something important to look at.  In doing so, 'further' happens. The sense of importance gets released and a new kind of experience flows in. It's certainly not a 'problem' in the sense that I lose sleep over it or anything, but If freedom is valued, getting stuck in one place, in one perspective could be said to be somewhat problematic. The problem, if it can be called that, dissolves when one sees that they are holding to a specific vantage point out of need, and calling it the one and only 'truth.' Would you say you have a problem with what I'm presenting? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 12:42:09 GMT -5
Well, yes! I'm getting a sweet qualia buzz right now. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 8, 2014 13:28:53 GMT -5
I'm getting a sweet qualia buzz right now. Everything is perfect, just the way it is. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 8, 2014 14:00:59 GMT -5
According to Tzu, volition is truth. Tzu's still mind sees separate volitional persons. According to Tzu, the non-dualists choose to deny volition while he chooses to acknowledge volition. He insists on volition being true and not just an idea. He doesn't just say that there is choosing happening, he insists that there is actually a separate volitional person deliberately choosing. That's the opposite of "no longer having the essence of truthiness or sense of importance". Volition is at the basis of his still mind belief system. Obviously Tzu can clarify himself, however, I only see him invoking the word truth inasmuch that truth = what happens at face value, absent the spinning of stories about that. He does not seem to concern himself with 'truth' beyond the present moment experience. Experiencing the act of choosing, and then concluding that this means one must have volition, is not 'what happens at face value'. It's a conclusion, a story. The inability to distinguish what's actually happening from what one thinks is happening, is the source of much self delusion. This is why we talk about WIBIGO vs the illusion of what we think is going on. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 8, 2014 14:38:51 GMT -5
Obviously Tzu can clarify himself, however, I only see him invoking the word truth inasmuch that truth = what happens at face value, absent the spinning of stories about that. He does not seem to concern himself with 'truth' beyond the present moment experience. Experiencing the act of choosing, and then concluding that this means one must have volition, is not 'what happens at face value'. It's a conclusion, a story. The inability to distinguish what's actually happening from what one thinks is happening, is the source of much self delusion. This is why we talk about WIBIGO vs the illusion of what we think is going on. Separate people are volitionary. I am neither a dog or a cat, I am a person. I am not sat where you are sat, therefore we are separate. I am not inhibited from writing this message, I am free to write it. And that's WIBIGO :: mischievous chuckle:: |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 15:32:20 GMT -5
I'm getting a sweet qualia buzz right now. Everything is perfect, just the way it is. UG! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 15:37:02 GMT -5
Experiencing the act of choosing, and then concluding that this means one must have volition, is not 'what happens at face value'. It's a conclusion, a story. The inability to distinguish what's actually happening from what one thinks is happening, is the source of much self delusion. This is why we talk about WIBIGO vs the illusion of what we think is going on. Separate people are volitionary. I am neither a dog or a cat, I am a person. I am not sat where you are sat, therefore we are separate. I am not inhibited from writing this message, I am free to write it. And that's WIBIGO :: mischievous chuckle:: I saw a real youtube video (which the blue helmets probably forcibly removed) that had a psychic dog whisperer articulate in English what a yellow lab was thinking when it was lying on the rug. "She's saying that she has no volition." Unfortunately the dog whisperer didn't know what that meant and so didn't see the humor in it. And the documentarian didn't go into it at all but it was the most ironic thing but totally AMAZING. Especially in light of these convos here. There was a cat too. But the guy could only speculate on what it was thinking. Just swishing her tail. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 8, 2014 15:46:05 GMT -5
Separate people are volitionary. I am neither a dog or a cat, I am a person. I am not sat where you are sat, therefore we are separate. I am not inhibited from writing this message, I am free to write it. And that's WIBIGO :: mischievous chuckle:: I saw a real youtube video (which the blue helmets probably forcibly removed) that had a psychic dog whisperer articulate in English what a yellow lab was thinking when it was lying on the rug. "She's saying that she has no volition." Unfortunately the dog whisperer didn't know what that meant and so didn't see the humor in it. And the documentarian didn't go into it at all but it was the most ironic thing but totally AMAZING. Especially in light of these convos here. There was a cat too. But the guy could only speculate on what it was thinking. Just swishing her tail. lol that's cool, hope the dog hasn't fallen into an advaita trap hehe. This well worth a watch on similar subject |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 15:48:35 GMT -5
I saw a real youtube video (which the blue helmets probably forcibly removed) that had a psychic dog whisperer articulate in English what a yellow lab was thinking when it was lying on the rug. "She's saying that she has no volition." Unfortunately the dog whisperer didn't know what that meant and so didn't see the humor in it. And the documentarian didn't go into it at all but it was the most ironic thing but totally AMAZING. Especially in light of these convos here. There was a cat too. But the guy could only speculate on what it was thinking. Just swishing her tail. lol that's cool, hope the dog hasn't fallen into an advaita trap hehe. This well worth a watch on similar subject FULL DISCLOSURE: I was lying, telling a stretcher. |
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In doing so, 'further' happens. The sense of importance gets released and a new kind of experience flows in. 
