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Post by enigma on Jul 20, 2015 10:20:48 GMT -5
The way I'm reading your quote, it's pointing to purifying how we use mind and the contents, not to stopping mind. "Because of the imperfections of the mind, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body and not the Self." It could also be interpreted to mean that purifying the mind involved developing the opposite of those. Perfect the mind. Refine the mind. Calm the mind. Develop discernment. Develop insight. (Sounds quite Buddhist put that way.) I see what you're saying. More like recalibration. It sounds like quite a project to me. Yes, like buddhism. My hunch is that it's a much more simple process. For example, this idea -- "you are not your thoughts" -- is simple but devastating. Like dropping a drop of soap in an oily filmy mess. I suppose your results may vary. But perhaps purification just is a constant returning to that. The project of making the mind clear is a failure from the outset. Better to root out the source for the impurity, which has to be relentless. IOW, staying with the I Am. And then, once consistent, hacking it to pieces. As I see it, the mind can't purify the mind, so obviously some other 'input' is required. That input is realization, which is not originating in mind, and yet informs mind. In my terminology, there are many realizations apart from the Big Kahuna of Self Realization, and many of them are not at all difficult or rare. The absence of volition, impermanence of dualistic happiness, the idea that nothing can actually see itself, are examples of simple realizations that can have a strong purifying effect on the mind because mind cannot deny the self evident. When mind goes into denial, it knows of the self deception and ultimately fails. This is why pushing away feelings doesn't work. Ironically, mind is fundamentally honest, and can only pretend to not know, or continually turn attention away from it's own knowing. This is why the relentless focus on your simple existence (I Am), or calming the mind, can break that pattern of pretending and avoiding, and allow these realizations to occur. Butt it cannot be another one of mind's games, which is why sincerity and willingness are so important.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 11:43:26 GMT -5
What does "purify the mind" mean, really? If mind is thought and thinking, what is purifying it mean? It's not about the content of thought and thinking. It must be about the presence or absence of thinking/thought. So purify means just stop. Why do you say it's not about the content? Well I was meaning content like what the ideas/thoughts are communicating, literally. Nothing fancy. Purifying the mind, can't mean shaping bad thoughts into better thoughts, for example. It's more about the presence or absence of thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 13:06:15 GMT -5
I see what you're saying. More like recalibration. It sounds like quite a project to me. Yes, like buddhism. My hunch is that it's a much more simple process. For example, this idea -- "you are not your thoughts" -- is simple but devastating. Like dropping a drop of soap in an oily filmy mess. I suppose your results may vary. But perhaps purification just is a constant returning to that. The project of making the mind clear is a failure from the outset. Better to root out the source for the impurity, which has to be relentless. IOW, staying with the I Am. And then, once consistent, hacking it to pieces. As I see it, the mind can't purify the mind, so obviously some other 'input' is required. That input is realization, which is not originating in mind, and yet informs mind.In my terminology, there are many realizations apart from the Big Kahuna of Self Realization, and many of them are not at all difficult or rare. The absence of volition, impermanence of dualistic happiness, the idea that nothing can actually see itself, are examples of simple realizations that can have a strong purifying effect on the mind because mind cannot deny the self evident. When mind goes into denial, it knows of the self deception and ultimately fails. This is why pushing away feelings doesn't work. Ironically, mind is fundamentally honest, and can only pretend to not know, or continually turn attention away from it's own knowing. This is why the relentless focus on your simple existence (I Am), or calming the mind, can break that pattern of pretending and avoiding, and allow these realizations to occur. Butt it cannot be another one of mind's games, which is why sincerity and willingness are so important. That's one direction focusing on the mind, but there is also an even greater opposite direction, not involving mind at all. That which is beyond mind was born and gave rise to the mind. And one day it will die along with the mind. But that which it was born into and dies out of, was that ever born? The mind can't solve that question no matter how many lifetimes it uses, but it doesn't have to because the answer is right here, right now and for the taking.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 20, 2015 13:15:01 GMT -5
Why do you say it's not about the content? Well I was meaning content like what the ideas/thoughts are communicating, literally. Nothing fancy. Purifying the mind, can't mean shaping bad thoughts into better thoughts, for example. It's more about the presence or absence of thoughts. Well, there are thoughts, and then there are thoughts. Thinking about practical everyday life issues and work-related issues is not a problem. Fantasizing, holding a grudge, thoughts of greed or acquisitiveness, comparing one's situation with others (worrying about keeping up with the Jones'es), reflecting about one's spiritual "progress" or lack thereof, thinking that whatever's happening should be different than what's happening, thinking/worrying about what other people think about oneself, having expectations/ becoming attached to expectations, thinking either positive or negative thoughts about oneself, etc. etc. are thoughts that keep people psychologically separated from the truth of "what is." Tolle often describes what happens when an individual is involved in a vehicle accident to illustrate the difference between living in a trance-like state of mind dominated by intellectual reflection/the internal dialogue, and becoming temporarily free from the intellect. When an accident occurs, most reflective thought ends, and the individual becomes psychologically present. The body responds appropriately, does whatever has to be done, and then does the next thing that has to be done. During the period of time immediately following the accident, the individual lives very much like a sage--fully engaged with reality without reflecting upon it. Thinking may occur, but it is directly related to the concrete events of the moment--"Is anybody hurt? Has anybody called the police or an ambulance? Are the cars sufficiently drivable to move them to the side of the road?" Etc. There's no thought about existential issues, one's state of mind, philosophical questions, the future, the past, achievements, image, etc. One of Zen Master Seung Sahn's favorite expressions (long before Nike started using it as a slogan) was, "Just do it!" IOW, don't waste your life in endless reflective thinking ABOUT reality. Be here now; act; live; play; dance!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 15:13:50 GMT -5
Well I was meaning content like what the ideas/thoughts are communicating, literally. Nothing fancy. Purifying the mind, can't mean shaping bad thoughts into better thoughts, for example. It's more about the presence or absence of thoughts. Well, there are thoughts, and then there are thoughts. Thinking about practical everyday life issues and work-related issues is not a problem. Fantasizing, holding a grudge, thoughts of greed or acquisitiveness, comparing one's situation with others (worrying about keeping up with the Jones'es), reflecting about one's spiritual "progress" or lack thereof, thinking that whatever's happening should be different than what's happening, thinking/worrying about what other people think about oneself, having expectations/ becoming attached to expectations, thinking either positive or negative thoughts about oneself, etc. etc. are thoughts that keep people psychologically separated from the truth of "what is." Tolle often describes what happens when an individual is involved in a vehicle accident to illustrate the difference between living in a trance-like state of mind dominated by intellectual reflection/the internal dialogue, and becoming temporarily free from the intellect. When an accident occurs, most reflective thought ends, and the individual becomes psychologically present. The body responds appropriately, does whatever has to be done, and then does the next thing that has to be done. During the period of time immediately following the accident, the individual lives very much like a sage--fully engaged with reality without reflecting upon it. Thinking may occur, but it is directly related to the concrete events of the moment--"Is anybody hurt? Has anybody called the police or an ambulance? Are the cars sufficiently drivable to move them to the side of the road?" Etc. There's no thought about existential issues, one's state of mind, philosophical questions, the future, the past, achievements, image, etc. One of Zen Master Seung Sahn's favorite expressions (long before Nike started using it as a slogan) was, "Just do it!" IOW, don't waste your life in endless reflective thinking ABOUT reality. Be here now; act; live; play; dance! This quote from Niz: ""There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the mind which is reflected as “I am”. Because of the imperfections of the mind, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body and not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the mind so that it can realize its identity with the Self." -- what do you make of 'purify the mind'?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 20, 2015 16:32:28 GMT -5
Well, there are thoughts, and then there are thoughts. Thinking about practical everyday life issues and work-related issues is not a problem. Fantasizing, holding a grudge, thoughts of greed or acquisitiveness, comparing one's situation with others (worrying about keeping up with the Jones'es), reflecting about one's spiritual "progress" or lack thereof, thinking that whatever's happening should be different than what's happening, thinking/worrying about what other people think about oneself, having expectations/ becoming attached to expectations, thinking either positive or negative thoughts about oneself, etc. etc. are thoughts that keep people psychologically separated from the truth of "what is." Tolle often describes what happens when an individual is involved in a vehicle accident to illustrate the difference between living in a trance-like state of mind dominated by intellectual reflection/the internal dialogue, and becoming temporarily free from the intellect. When an accident occurs, most reflective thought ends, and the individual becomes psychologically present. The body responds appropriately, does whatever has to be done, and then does the next thing that has to be done. During the period of time immediately following the accident, the individual lives very much like a sage--fully engaged with reality without reflecting upon it. Thinking may occur, but it is directly related to the concrete events of the moment--"Is anybody hurt? Has anybody called the police or an ambulance? Are the cars sufficiently drivable to move them to the side of the road?" Etc. There's no thought about existential issues, one's state of mind, philosophical questions, the future, the past, achievements, image, etc. One of Zen Master Seung Sahn's favorite expressions (long before Nike started using it as a slogan) was, "Just do it!" IOW, don't waste your life in endless reflective thinking ABOUT reality. Be here now; act; live; play; dance! This quote from Niz: ""There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the mind which is reflected as “I am”. Because of the imperfections of the mind, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body and not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the mind so that it can realize its identity with the Self." -- what do you make of 'purify the mind'? From my POV "purify the mind" is a pointer to ATA-T, shikan taza, remaining in the I AM, or whatever cuts off excessive reflection/compulsive thought, along with using the mind appropriately, as described in the post, above. As you noted in a previous post, there are many realizations that occur on the path to freedom, and many of them relate to appropriate use of the mind. Stopping the habit of self-referential thought, spending a significant amount of time interacting with the world directly, staying psychologically present, and getting free from the intellect (except when it is used in a practical manner), is like fruit ripening on a tree. At the right time, the fruit drops off the tree.
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Post by enigma on Jul 20, 2015 19:25:00 GMT -5
Why do you say it's not about the content? Well I was meaning content like what the ideas/thoughts are communicating, literally. Nothing fancy. Purifying the mind, can't mean shaping bad thoughts into better thoughts, for example. It's more about the presence or absence of thoughts.Yes. I call that content, but no matter.
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Post by enigma on Jul 20, 2015 19:32:21 GMT -5
As I see it, the mind can't purify the mind, so obviously some other 'input' is required. That input is realization, which is not originating in mind, and yet informs mind.In my terminology, there are many realizations apart from the Big Kahuna of Self Realization, and many of them are not at all difficult or rare. The absence of volition, impermanence of dualistic happiness, the idea that nothing can actually see itself, are examples of simple realizations that can have a strong purifying effect on the mind because mind cannot deny the self evident. When mind goes into denial, it knows of the self deception and ultimately fails. This is why pushing away feelings doesn't work. Ironically, mind is fundamentally honest, and can only pretend to not know, or continually turn attention away from it's own knowing. This is why the relentless focus on your simple existence (I Am), or calming the mind, can break that pattern of pretending and avoiding, and allow these realizations to occur. Butt it cannot be another one of mind's games, which is why sincerity and willingness are so important. That's one direction focusing on the mind, but there is also an even greater opposite direction, not involving mind at all.That which is beyond mind was born and gave rise to the mind. And one day it will die along with the mind. But that which it was born into and dies out of, was that ever born? The mind can't solve that question no matter how lifetimes it uses, but it doesn't have to because the answer is right here, right now and for the taking. I didn't suggest focussing on the mind. However, without mind, there is no problem. The problem is in the mind, so the solution must involve mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 22:15:58 GMT -5
That's one direction focusing on the mind, but there is also an even greater opposite direction, not involving mind at all.That which is beyond mind was born and gave rise to the mind. And one day it will die along with the mind. But that which it was born into and dies out of, was that ever born? The mind can't solve that question no matter how lifetimes it uses, but it doesn't have to because the answer is right here, right now and for the taking. I didn't suggest focussing on the mind. However, without mind, there is no problem. The problem is in the mind, so the solution must involve mind. Sure, the mind made itself the problem and now the mind thinks it's going to resolve the mind problem. That's not what is meant by Niz's "putting an ax to the 'I AM'" or purification of the mind. It is to enter the realm beyond mind, or without mind as you say, or no mind or the absence of mind. So no matter how informed the mind or how much understanding it has, it is all relative because the mind cannot transcend itself.
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Post by tenka on Jul 21, 2015 2:35:02 GMT -5
The mind reflects the Self as self, so whatever is reflected is how one perceives what they are .
If the reflective surface is soiled then one simply will not see clearly that which is reflecting and that which is reflected .
It is paramount that one perceives clearly otherwise how one perceives will only be likened to shadow in comparison to being in the light of Self .
Not many have agreed with my process of self enquiry and the need for healing and purification .
The heart energy is always at the heart of self so purification of the heart will allow one to attain clarity of the mind . This is so because self is of the mind .
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Post by tenka on Jul 21, 2015 2:50:33 GMT -5
The Buddha describes the defilements as bonds, fetters, hindrances, and knots; thence the path to unbonding, release, and liberation, to untying the knots, is at the same time a discipline aimed at inward cleansing.
The work of purification must be undertaken in the same place where the defilements arise, in the mind itself, and the main method the Dhamma offers for purifying the mind is meditation.
Since all defiled states of consciousness are born from ignorance, the most deeply embedded defilement, the final and ultimate purification of mind is to be accomplished through the instrumentality of wisdom, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. Wisdom, however, does not arise through chance or random good intentions, but only in a purified mind. Thus in order for wisdom to come forth and accomplish the ultimate purification through the eradication of defilements, we first have to create a space for it by developing a provisional purification of mind — a purification which, though temporary and vulnerable, is still indispensable as a foundation for the emergence of all liberative insight.
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Post by laughter on Jul 21, 2015 5:56:03 GMT -5
Well, there are thoughts, and then there are thoughts. Thinking about practical everyday life issues and work-related issues is not a problem. Fantasizing, holding a grudge, thoughts of greed or acquisitiveness, comparing one's situation with others (worrying about keeping up with the Jones'es), reflecting about one's spiritual "progress" or lack thereof, thinking that whatever's happening should be different than what's happening, thinking/worrying about what other people think about oneself, having expectations/ becoming attached to expectations, thinking either positive or negative thoughts about oneself, etc. etc. are thoughts that keep people psychologically separated from the truth of "what is." Tolle often describes what happens when an individual is involved in a vehicle accident to illustrate the difference between living in a trance-like state of mind dominated by intellectual reflection/the internal dialogue, and becoming temporarily free from the intellect. When an accident occurs, most reflective thought ends, and the individual becomes psychologically present. The body responds appropriately, does whatever has to be done, and then does the next thing that has to be done. During the period of time immediately following the accident, the individual lives very much like a sage--fully engaged with reality without reflecting upon it. Thinking may occur, but it is directly related to the concrete events of the moment--"Is anybody hurt? Has anybody called the police or an ambulance? Are the cars sufficiently drivable to move them to the side of the road?" Etc. There's no thought about existential issues, one's state of mind, philosophical questions, the future, the past, achievements, image, etc. One of Zen Master Seung Sahn's favorite expressions (long before Nike started using it as a slogan) was, "Just do it!" IOW, don't waste your life in endless reflective thinking ABOUT reality. Be here now; act; live; play; dance! This quote from Niz: ""There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the mind which is reflected as “I am”. Because of the imperfections of the mind, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body and not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the mind so that it can realize its identity with the Self." -- what do you make of 'purify the mind'? To sponge off of ZD's use of "appropriate": some uses of mind reinforce a sense of identity which is anything but transparent, others don't. Yes: "what makes use?".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 11:36:22 GMT -5
This quote from Niz: ""There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the mind which is reflected as “I am”. Because of the imperfections of the mind, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body and not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the mind so that it can realize its identity with the Self." -- what do you make of 'purify the mind'? To sponge off of ZD's use of "appropriate": some uses of mind reinforce a sense of identity which is anything but transparent, others don't. Yes: " what makes use?". Right, if it's mind that ain't it. Mind is a process of the self affirming sense of "I AM". Mind(relative world) can't be attuned with the perfection of the Absolute.
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