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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 15:56:39 GMT -5
Yeah...and often, clarity goes further than modifying desires, it evaporates them...not much else really does that actually. There are some interesting tie ends here though, to that conversation we were having the other day about something happening with regards to mind when we sleep etc...desire seems to keep patterns of behavior in motion across the gap of deep sleep or samadhi. For example, you have a desire to wake up at a specific time, which is probably a part of a field of other desires in itself, and across the gap of deep sleep, there is a movement that arises from the stillness at the time of the desired waking hour, and no conscious thought process is causing that wakefulness to stir, only a kind of impulse initiated by the desire to wake at that time. I find this very interesting...the source of desire, and how it manifests seems to be part and parcel to that aspect if mind or omni-presence that is there even when conscious consciousness SEEMS to not be around. Yes, understanding of desire may likewise be limited by our ideas about it. We perhaps see it [Desire] as arising from thought and yet desire is what results in the arising of thought. I generally see both as true: thought influencing desire and desire influencing thought, but when I look at the larger movements of consciousness, I see desire as more fundamental than thought. The question as to why anything happens at all, including mind, cannot be answered by looking at thought, only desire. It seems to me that life is crazy in love with it's own expression. Life is irrational at the most fundamental level. Yeah...The way I experience it, there is a kind of feedback loop so to speak...desire generates thought and movement impulses, which in turn compound our desires, which in turn compounds thought and movement impulses in a kind of perpetual patterned cycle which is our individual Karma. But desire is at or near the root of it....going back to high-school psychology, probably all of the desires we have as adults relate back somehow to the basic desires for food, shelter, advantageous mating, etc... On a macro level, Desire seems to be that aspect of omni-presence that keeps a kind of loose and evolving continuity to this semi-shared experience that we are all having as humans on this planet....Desire arranges the medium of expression here so to speak, and maintains a kind of continuity. I think its probably impossible to consciously engender a desire that is outside of the set paradigm of this particular appearence of existence, unless one can say that the kind if seeking that happens in these circles is a desire for something outside of the standard paradigm of this sphere of reality (woe, thats a conversation all by itself lol), but one may be able to consciously generate desires that are derivative of the greater pattern of desire inherent to this sphere of perceived reality. I think I'll run an experiment for a few weeks, and see if I can shape a desire, and nurture it into a deep fruition, such that the desire generates its own patterns of thoughts and impulses that 'override' the current pattern of thoughts and impulses that arise. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 15:57:21 GMT -5
you think too much about this stuff rupa
too much thinking, not enough doing
..between thoughts. LoL......thats very good......but can you show it to me?  |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2014 17:57:47 GMT -5
Do desires even exist as desires if there is no thought that distinguishes them as such? Yes, the mind can think, "I see that there is a desire for X," but if the mind remains quiescent, what then? What would a still mind say about that? Well thats the interesting bit, does your mind "remain quiescent"? Why not?....seems like Desire has something to do with that... Of course the still mind has nothing to say about desire....there is no appearance of the word desire, or that movement of mind that the word 'desire' points to while there is no Gross Mind Movement, and yet, mind movement arises out of the stillness, and in every single instance it seems that the movement arises out of either an intention or an impulse relating to a desire of some kind. A desire to 'know', a desire to ease another one's suffering, a desire to inform a question asker, a desire to bring comfort to another etc... And conversely, without some desire and the movement impulses that relate to it, there seems to be no movement arising. This would suggest that other than the original movement of mind into a pattern of some particular desire, that mind movement is not in fact 'spontaneous'...as all mind movement relates to some desire. Whats interesting to me, is that something about a desire movement, seems to bridge the gap of stillness that opens as a result of deep sleep, samadhi, or simply a quiescent mind...this gives the aspect of mind that we call desire a pretty mysterious happening lol Yup. We could say desire is prior to conscious thought, and it's the reason thought arises, and it's desire (or fear, which leads to desire) that has to be dealt with if one wants to quiet the mind. I call the thought that arises from desire spontaneous because it's not brought about through a conscious act of will, but of course there are reasons why the thoughts arise. They're not random. This is why we attempt to see through beliefs as a means of quieting the mind. In doing so, we're altering the conditioning directly, and the arising of thoughts indirectly. |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2014 18:53:16 GMT -5
Yes, understanding of desire may likewise be limited by our ideas about it. We perhaps see it [Desire] as arising from thought and yet desire is what results in the arising of thought. I generally see both as true: thought influencing desire and desire influencing thought, but when I look at the larger movements of consciousness, I see desire as more fundamental than thought. The question as to why anything happens at all, including mind, cannot be answered by looking at thought, only desire. It seems to me that life is crazy in love with it's own expression. Life is irrational at the most fundamental level. Yeah...The way I experience it, there is a kind of feedback loop so to speak...desire generates thought and movement impulses, which in turn compound our desires, which in turn compounds thought and movement impulses in a kind of perpetual patterned cycle which is our individual Karma. But desire is at or near the root of it....going back to high-school psychology, probably all of the desires we have as adults relate back somehow to the basic desires for food, shelter, advantageous mating, etc... On a macro level, Desire seems to be that aspect of omni-presence that keeps a kind of loose and evolving continuity to this semi-shared experience that we are all having as humans on this planet....Desire arranges the medium of expression here so to speak, and maintains a kind of continuity. I think its probably impossible to consciously engender a desire that is outside of the set paradigm of this particular appearence of existence, unless one can say that the kind if seeking that happens in these circles is a desire for something outside of the standard paradigm of this sphere of reality (woe, thats a conversation all by itself lol), but one may be able to consciously generate desires that are derivative of the greater pattern of desire inherent to this sphere of perceived reality. I think I'll run an experiment for a few weeks, and see if I can shape a desire, and nurture it into a deep fruition, such that the desire generates its own patterns of thoughts and impulses that 'override' the current pattern of thoughts and impulses that arise. Life/experience is movement, and desire could be seen as the catalyst for that movement. This might imply that desire is required, but there is something else that 'moves' in the stillness. Life is imbued at it's core with a kind of sweetness, for lack of a better term, that moves in/as the experience itself and does not require the contrived desire of an individuated experiencer motivated by his conditioning. To the desiring mind, it's a mystery why the rose blooms, and yet there it is effortlessly moving in the absence of desire. The rose has always been closer to 'God' than man knows how to be. |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2014 18:56:21 GMT -5
Actually I have a still mind...between thoughts. LoL......thats very good......but can you show it to me?  |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 19:46:10 GMT -5
Yeah...The way I experience it, there is a kind of feedback loop so to speak...desire generates thought and movement impulses, which in turn compound our desires, which in turn compounds thought and movement impulses in a kind of perpetual patterned cycle which is our individual Karma. But desire is at or near the root of it....going back to high-school psychology, probably all of the desires we have as adults relate back somehow to the basic desires for food, shelter, advantageous mating, etc... On a macro level, Desire seems to be that aspect of omni-presence that keeps a kind of loose and evolving continuity to this semi-shared experience that we are all having as humans on this planet....Desire arranges the medium of expression here so to speak, and maintains a kind of continuity. I think its probably impossible to consciously engender a desire that is outside of the set paradigm of this particular appearence of existence, unless one can say that the kind if seeking that happens in these circles is a desire for something outside of the standard paradigm of this sphere of reality (woe, thats a conversation all by itself lol), but one may be able to consciously generate desires that are derivative of the greater pattern of desire inherent to this sphere of perceived reality. I think I'll run an experiment for a few weeks, and see if I can shape a desire, and nurture it into a deep fruition, such that the desire generates its own patterns of thoughts and impulses that 'override' the current pattern of thoughts and impulses that arise. Life/experience is movement, and desire could be seen as the catalyst for that movement. This might imply that desire is required, but there is something else that 'moves' in the stillness. Life is imbued at it's core with a kind of sweetness, for lack of a better term, that moves in/as the experience itself and does not require the contrived desire of an individuated experiencer motivated by his conditioning. To the desiring mind, it's a mystery why the rose blooms, and yet there it is effortlessly moving in the absence of desire. The rose has always been closer to 'God' than man knows how to be. Thats a very beautiful post. An alternate model, may be that the rose, or at a minimum, your consciousness of the "sweetness" of the rose, may not be independent of desire...but may instead be part and parcel with desire....none of which lessons the poignancy of it all.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 19:56:46 GMT -5
Actually I have a still mind...between thoughts. LoL......thats very good......but can you show it to me? Why, can't you see it? |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 20:03:52 GMT -5
LoL......thats very good......but can you show it to me? Why, can't you see it? . . |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 20:10:19 GMT -5
Life/experience is movement, and desire could be seen as the catalyst for that movement. This might imply that desire is required, but there is something else that 'moves' in the stillness. Life is imbued at it's core with a kind of sweetness, for lack of a better term, that moves in/as the experience itself and does not require the contrived desire of an individuated experiencer motivated by his conditioning. To the desiring mind, it's a mystery why the rose blooms, and yet there it is effortlessly moving in the absence of desire. The rose has always been closer to 'God' than man knows how to be. Thats a very beautiful post. An alternate model, may be that the rose, or at a minimum, your consciousness of the "sweetness" of the rose, may not be independent of desire...but may instead be part and parcel with desire....none of which lessons the poignancy of it all. Another alternative idea... IF, 'Life/experience is movement, and desire could be seen as the catalyst for that movement', then who is it that seeks another life-experience, having had one or two I would think? Desire seeks unity; much like a person feels having saved-up to buy a new car, the old one too expensive to maintain.
Similarly, the desiring aspect of mind can bait one into the enlightenment trip, so that another can pay-for what looks impressive on paper and sounds even sweeter when seduction is brought into play by those seeking handsome monetary returns to buy further books and expound as their own garbage. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 2:16:37 GMT -5
Thats a very beautiful post. An alternate model, may be that the rose, or at a minimum, your consciousness of the "sweetness" of the rose, may not be independent of desire...but may instead be part and parcel with desire....none of which lessons the poignancy of it all. Another alternative idea... IF, 'Life/experience is movement, and desire could be seen as the catalyst for that movement', then who is it that seeks another life-experience, having had one or two I would think? Desire seeks unity; much like a person feels having saved-up to buy a new car, the old one too expensive to maintain.
Similarly, the desiring aspect of mind can bait one into the enlightenment trip, so that another can pay-for what looks impressive on paper and sounds even sweeter when seduction is brought into play by those seeking handsome monetary returns to buy further books and expound as their own garbage. Ehh....it is what it is my friend. |
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Post by silence on May 14, 2014 17:04:09 GMT -5
What if that base thought is actually true and the whole reason you drove somewhere to sit on the floor and pretend to be interested in your lungs? Meditation is a lot of things. But, yeah, that base thought is generally true, but it can be misinterpreted. It's not about rejecting thoughts. It's not about forcing the mind to be still. Most people have to be reminded that a lack of stillness isn't a problem and that the gold in meditation is that point where we notice how un-still the mind is. But the lack of stillness is the problem. It's why they're meditating. They've already noticed how un-still their mind is and want a solution. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 18:49:55 GMT -5
Meditation is a lot of things. But, yeah, that base thought is generally true, but it can be misinterpreted. It's not about rejecting thoughts. It's not about forcing the mind to be still. Most people have to be reminded that a lack of stillness isn't a problem and that the gold in meditation is that point where we notice how un-still the mind is. But the lack of stillness is the problem. It's why they're meditating. They've already noticed how un-still their mind is and want a solution. Yes, it's not the lack of stillness that's the real problem. There's plenty of that between thoughts. It's just not anyone's focus. Which as you suggest we don't need meditation as a solution to notice it. |
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Post by quinn on May 14, 2014 19:21:19 GMT -5
Meditation is a lot of things. But, yeah, that base thought is generally true, but it can be misinterpreted. It's not about rejecting thoughts. It's not about forcing the mind to be still. Most people have to be reminded that a lack of stillness isn't a problem and that the gold in meditation is that point where we notice how un-still the mind is. But the lack of stillness is the problem. It's why they're meditating. They've already noticed how un-still their mind is and want a solution. That's still rejecting. |
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Post by laughter on May 14, 2014 20:34:05 GMT -5
Well thats the interesting bit, does your mind "remain quiescent"? Why not?....seems like Desire has something to do with that... Of course the still mind has nothing to say about desire....there is no appearance of the word desire, or that movement of mind that the word 'desire' points to while there is no Gross Mind Movement, and yet, mind movement arises out of the stillness, and in every single instance it seems that the movement arises out of either an intention or an impulse relating to a desire of some kind. A desire to 'know', a desire to ease another one's suffering, a desire to inform a question asker, a desire to bring comfort to another etc... And conversely, without some desire and the movement impulses that relate to it, there seems to be no movement arising. This would suggest that other than the original movement of mind into a pattern of some particular desire, that mind movement is not in fact 'spontaneous'...as all mind movement relates to some desire. Whats interesting to me, is that something about a desire movement, seems to bridge the gap of stillness that opens as a result of deep sleep, samadhi, or simply a quiescent mind...this gives the aspect of mind that we call desire a pretty mysterious happening lol Yup. We could say desire is prior to conscious thought, and it's the reason thought arises, and it's desire (or fear, which leads to desire) that has to be dealt with if one wants to quiet the mind. I call the thought that arises from desire spontaneous because it's not brought about through a conscious act of will, but of course there are reasons why the thoughts arise. They're not random. This is why we attempt to see through beliefs as a means of quieting the mind. In doing so, we're altering the conditioning directly, and the arising of thoughts indirectly. A minute-to-minute habit of "watching the thinker" or "ATA'ing" or "refuse thought other than 'I AM'" or "arousing the mind without resting it on anything" can lead to moments of noticing and in those moments there's a chance to simply recognize what was being thought about as it was noticed. Not to make an enemy of thinking, not to judge it or suppress it, but instead just an opportunity to ask ... "well, WIBIGO??  " |
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2014 20:41:03 GMT -5
Yup. We could say desire is prior to conscious thought, and it's the reason thought arises, and it's desire (or fear, which leads to desire) that has to be dealt with if one wants to quiet the mind. I call the thought that arises from desire spontaneous because it's not brought about through a conscious act of will, but of course there are reasons why the thoughts arise. They're not random. This is why we attempt to see through beliefs as a means of quieting the mind. In doing so, we're altering the conditioning directly, and the arising of thoughts indirectly. A minute-to-minute habit of "watching the thinker" or "ATA'ing" or "refuse thought other than 'I AM'" or "arousing the mind without resting it on anything" can lead to moments of noticing and in those moments there's a chance to simply recognize what was being thought about as it was noticed. Not to make an enemy of thinking, not to judge it or suppress it, but instead just an opportunity to ask ... "well, WIBIGO?? " Yup, and really it's a simple thang. Follow a thought if you like, but don't follow it into mind. Follow it back to God. Why go back the way you came? Just take that natural curiosity, STFU, and expand out to infinity, which just means dropping all the boundaries that thought is in the biznis of creating. |
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