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Post by silver on May 10, 2014 13:03:07 GMT -5
I have often told people that prayer is talking to spirit, God, ancestors or what ever you wish to call it. And meditation is learning to listen to what they have to say. I tell people that they have to learn to experience what we call numb brain, that roar of silence between the ears, before this communication can even start. Some people get to this numb brain place easy and some have to work at it for years. The sweat lodge is the only short cut that I know of to help people experience this silence is just a few hours. I tell people if they want to learn to meditate they need to remember this feeling and learn to return to this place. It is a great place to get answers. The only problem that I have is remembering that I had a question. Real spitit stuff is real simple, if a six year old cannot understand it, it might not be worth saying. Never prayed very much for most of my life until in my thirties my wife would occasionally ask me to pray with her .. looking back it was likely her way of trying to interest me in Christianity. The part of any prayer where one asks for something always has struck me as sardonically amusing and brings to mind Joplin's "Mercedez Benz", so I've always been inclined to keep that part very light, general and altruistic ... and I always insisted on praying to "whatever is". The moment of mental stillness after any prayer did catch my attention though, I must admit. Meditation is simply prayer without asking for something or apologizing for anything. That is very sweet. If you never had any conversations then or now, about whether she was proselytizing by doing that, you'll never know how she thought then or how she thinks now about those times she asked for you to pray with her. I used to ask my son to pray and he always did until he got a little older, but he would humor me from time to time, and sometimes we would simply make a joke out of it by saying the prayer fast then slow, giggling and just having fun with it - not taking it seriously. It's just a communion thing - coupling, I guess. I mean you can choose to intellectualize the experience if you want. I think I always 'knew' Christ is but a concept without being consciously aware...the thing is, when my son would pray, almost each and every time, his breath would slow - he would take a deep, relaxing-sounding breath about 1/3rd of the way through and that alone I think was a help to him. Sitting side by side on the bed, he would take my right hand with his left hand. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:03:25 GMT -5
When my mind goes silent/still so does any concept of part and whole. Yes, my experience too. A still mind is absent any theories about what is -- but even more than that, any theories about anything seem, at best, a hindrance to and a bridge away from a still mind. Only go straight, and not know ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:07:57 GMT -5
Leonard Jacobsen obviously believes in volition, because he thinks he can think when necessary and not think when it isn't necessary. No one chooses or decides to have a still mind. It's either thoughts have retreated to the background or they aren't arising with any frequency. But there isn't someone choosing to think or not think. In other words thinking or not thinking isn't a problem. The arising of thinking itself creates a thinker. That's the problem. People can and some people do choose if and when to actively conjure thoughts, much of misunderstanding about such matters is related to the experiencer assuming that others have the same mindscapes that the experiencer has.. Without a thinker there is no thought, in the same way that without a vehicle there is no driver.. if the 'thinker/thought' seems like a problem, ask yourself why, there is no avoiding the actuality of that relationship, and.. the intention to separate the thinker from the thought is like trying to separate the wet from water, it creates an irreconcilable illusion/conflict as can be observed in this thread.. allow it to be what it is, and the conflict vanishes.. There is a significant amount of thinking about thoughts here at ST, a lot of false certainty.. i understand Leonard Jacobsen's description, it is consistent with my experience.. Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me from the conventional model of reality, a chooser, a conjurer, an experiencer, a driver, a thinker. But it's not compatible with a non-dual model where there is no chooser, no conjurer, no experiencer, no driver and no thinker. One model doesn't believe what it sees but what it thinks and the other model doesn't believe what it thinks but what it sees. They are two totally alien models and yet I see some people trying to marry them together. I'm immersing myself in the non-dual model at the moment. The immersion tends to magnify the glaring differences between the models. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:08:12 GMT -5
I have often told people that prayer is talking to spirit, God, ancestors or what ever you wish to call it. And meditation is learning to listen to what they have to say. I tell people that they have to learn to experience what we call numb brain, that roar of silence between the ears, before this communication can even start. Some people get to this numb brain place easy and some have to work at it for years. The sweat lodge is the only short cut that I know of to help people experience this silence is just a few hours. I tell people if they want to learn to meditate they need to remember this feeling and learn to return to this place. It is a great place to get answers. The only problem that I have is remembering that I had a question. Real spitit stuff is real simple, if a six year old cannot understand it, it might not be worth saying. Never prayed very much for most of my life until in my thirties my wife would occasionally ask me to pray with her .. looking back it was likely her way of trying to interest me in Christianity. The part of any prayer where one asks for something always has struck me as sardonically amusing and brings to mind Joplin's "Mercedez Benz", so I've always been inclined to keep that part very light, general and altruistic ... and I always insisted on praying to "whatever is". The moment of mental stillness after any prayer did catch my attention though, I must admit. Meditation is simply prayer without asking for something or apologizing for anything. The aramaic word for prayer, in the language that jesus and the biblical hebrews spoke, meant something much closer to the word meditation than how we most commonly use the word 'prayer' today...wherein 'prayer' has become a kind of inner verbal dialogue...though, even that inner verbal dialogue is powerful, in that in some way, something seems to open up in us when we pray with that inner dialogue with ___________ . |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:12:13 GMT -5
When my mind goes silent/still so does any concept of part and whole. Yes, my experience too. A still mind is absent any theories about what is -- but even more than that, any theories about anything seem, at best, a hindrance to and a bridge away from a still mind. Yes, my experience too. When the mind or what is really the duality of a subject/object gets quiet, there is only wholeness, presence, awareness. Interestingly enough even when the duality of the mind is on full blast, there is still only wholeness, presence, awareness. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:13:34 GMT -5
People can and some people do choose if and when to actively conjure thoughts, much of misunderstanding about such matters is related to the experiencer assuming that others have the same mindscapes that the experiencer has.. Without a thinker there is no thought, in the same way that without a vehicle there is no driver.. if the 'thinker/thought' seems like a problem, ask yourself why, there is no avoiding the actuality of that relationship, and.. the intention to separate the thinker from the thought is like trying to separate the wet from water, it creates an irreconcilable illusion/conflict as can be observed in this thread.. allow it to be what it is, and the conflict vanishes.. There is a significant amount of thinking about thoughts here at ST, a lot of false certainty.. i understand Leonard Jacobsen's description, it is consistent with my experience.. Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me from the conventional model of reality, a chooser, a conjurer, an experiencer, a driver, a thinker. But it's not compatible with a non-dual model where there is no chooser, no conjurer, no experiencer, no driver and no thinker. One model doesn't believe what it sees but what it thinks and the other model doesn't believe what it thinks but what it sees. They are two totally alien models and yet I see some people trying to marry them together. I'm immersing myself in the non-dual model at the moment. The immersion tends to magnify the glaring differences between the models. This whole 'choosing of models' thing is kinda funny to me...what a silly thing to do, why would you choose between them? Seems like you're likely to be happy whatever model you choose....;-) |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:14:27 GMT -5
Pointing out conventional thinking in someone is walking backwards through a gate-less gate? How so? Now you are trying to walk backwards through a gateless gate, while pointing to the imaginary shoes on your feet, instead of walking off with one shoe on your head. ;-) Sorry, you lost me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:18:05 GMT -5
Pointing out conventional thinking in someone is walking backwards through a gate-less gate? How so? Logic, as a vehicle, is like a roller coaster bound to a circular track, when really, you need an airplane, that can only land at one airport, to get where you are going. I need an airplane? |
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Post by quinn on May 10, 2014 13:28:36 GMT -5
I have often told people that prayer is talking to spirit, God, ancestors or what ever you wish to call it. And meditation is learning to listen to what they have to say. I tell people that they have to learn to experience what we call numb brain, that roar of silence between the ears, before this communication can even start. Some people get to this numb brain place easy and some have to work at it for years. The sweat lodge is the only short cut that I know of to help people experience this silence is just a few hours. I tell people if they want to learn to meditate they need to remember this feeling and learn to return to this place. It is a great place to get answers. The only problem that I have is remembering that I had a question. Real spitit stuff is real simple, if a six year old cannot understand it, it might not be worth saying. Never prayed very much for most of my life until in my thirties my wife would occasionally ask me to pray with her .. looking back it was likely her way of trying to interest me in Christianity. The part of any prayer where one asks for something always has struck me as sardonically amusing and brings to mind Joplin's "Mercedez Benz", so I've always been inclined to keep that part very light, general and altruistic ... and I always insisted on praying to "whatever is". The moment of mental stillness after any prayer did catch my attention though, I must admit. Meditation is simply prayer without asking for something or apologizing for anything. Just watched an interview with Elizabeth Lesser (co-founder of Omega) last night and she talked about the same thing, so I'll throw it in just cause of the serendipity. She said prayer is asking (I believe she was referring to desires of the heart) and meditation is listening for the answer. I haven't prayed, so I can't weigh in on that, but there's definitely listening in my meditations. A passive listening, if that makes any sense - no expectation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 13:32:03 GMT -5
Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me from the conventional model of reality, a chooser, a conjurer, an experiencer, a driver, a thinker. But it's not compatible with a non-dual model where there is no chooser, no conjurer, no experiencer, no driver and no thinker. One model doesn't believe what it sees but what it thinks and the other model doesn't believe what it thinks but what it sees. They are two totally alien models and yet I see some people trying to marry them together. I'm immersing myself in the non-dual model at the moment. The immersion tends to magnify the glaring differences between the models. This whole 'choosing of models' thing is kinda funny to me...what a silly thing to do, why would you choose between them? Seems like you're likely to be happy whatever model you choose....;-)I actually don't think the prevailing model of reality with its apocalyptic affects makes me happy. Does it make you happy? |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 14:06:43 GMT -5
This whole 'choosing of models' thing is kinda funny to me...what a silly thing to do, why would you choose between them? Seems like you're likely to be happy whatever model you choose....;-)I actually don't think the prevailing model of reality with its apocalyptic affects makes me happy. Does it make you happy? What apocalyptic? and yes, I am happy with whatever model that appears lol |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 14:40:25 GMT -5
I actually don't think the prevailing model of reality with its apocalyptic affects makes me happy. Does it make you happy? What apocalyptic? and yes, I am happy with whatever model that appears lol You are still talking about Victoria's Secret models aren't you? |
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Post by laughter on May 10, 2014 15:00:16 GMT -5
Never prayed very much for most of my life until in my thirties my wife would occasionally ask me to pray with her .. looking back it was likely her way of trying to interest me in Christianity. The part of any prayer where one asks for something always has struck me as sardonically amusing and brings to mind Joplin's "Mercedez Benz", so I've always been inclined to keep that part very light, general and altruistic ... and I always insisted on praying to "whatever is". The moment of mental stillness after any prayer did catch my attention though, I must admit. Meditation is simply prayer without asking for something or apologizing for anything. The aramaic word for prayer, in the language that jesus and the biblical hebrews spoke, meant something much closer to the word meditation than how we most commonly use the word 'prayer' today...wherein 'prayer' has become a kind of inner verbal dialogue...though, even that inner verbal dialogue is powerful, in that in some way, something seems to open up in us when we pray with that inner dialogue with ___________ . From my experience it was an inner dialog similar to what I imagine the term "guided meditation" refers to. In like the first quarter of "The Power of Now" Tolle sort of impishly tricks the reader into meditation with the invitation to imagine oneself as a cat watching a mousehole. It was quite the attention-getter and what I based my sitting practice on. These days the visualization simply isn't necessary, and such is the progression of practice.  |
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Post by laughter on May 10, 2014 15:08:58 GMT -5
Yes, my experience too. A still mind is absent any theories about what is -- but even more than that, any theories about anything seem, at best, a hindrance to and a bridge away from a still mind. Yes, my experience too. When the mind or what is really the duality of a subject/object gets quiet, there is only wholeness, presence, awareness. Interestingly enough even when the duality of the mind is on full blast, there is still only wholeness, presence, awareness.Yes, and the story goes from over here that the times spent in stillness deepens and "increases the frequency" of that recognition. That's just a story though and as Reefs is always quick to point out if you're interested in what nonduality points toward you may as well sit on the couch pounding chips and beer to soap opera's as sit in meditation. This is another one of those conceptually irreconcilable apparent contradictions (paramigudox's) like free will/volition. That's the wall of the mind and thinking after hitting it is always a waste of time.  |
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Post by laughter on May 10, 2014 15:13:08 GMT -5
Logic, as a vehicle, is like a roller coaster bound to a circular track, when really, you need an airplane, that can only land at one airport, to get where you are going. I need an airplane?
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