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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:40:23 GMT -5
I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Who said anything about a still mind? It's just relatively quiet - relative to how it used to be. Don't let that self-defeating b@stard-machine tell you "Hey, other people can still their minds, but you can't." It's a lie. It's a lie because just he can't or it's a lie because one can't still one's mind at will? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 26, 2014 0:53:50 GMT -5
Deep meditative states can replace sleep, so one would think that insomnia may ensue kinda commonly in a beginning to middling meditator that is meditating regularly. Right. But I rather think Quinn has some psychological baggage (resistance) to work thru which keeps here awake. I can solve anybody's insomnia in one day. Through food, air and impressions we create a certain amount of energy needed for each day, energy for thinking, feeling, moving and keeping the organism functioning. Each center has a certain quality and quantity of energy allotted. Sleep comes when we use up that allotted energy. Now, dreams can use up the extra energy of the intellectual center and the emotional center. I'd say that most insomnia is a result of not using up the energy of the moving center. The answer? Physical activity, a lot of it if necessary. You just wear that ole body out and then be careful or you won't make it to the bed, you'll fall asleep where you are. I bet zd never had a problem sleeping at night, likewise E (I was an electrician, I usually didn't make it past 9:00). EM Cioran the writer/philosopher discovered this by accident. He was plagued by insomnia, so he would get on his bicycle and ride the streets of Paris at night. Now, why does meditation and other interior practices cause less sleep to be required? Because the allotted energy for the day is transformed into a finer energy and stored. Dreaming isn't required to use up the excess energy. sdp |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 0:57:07 GMT -5
ah, ok ok .. well I'm pretty sure that what I'm gonna' write about next is what the frog calls a "split mind" practice, but looking back it sure seemed to do wonders for me in silencing the narrative, and it's based on that one Tolle quote I alluded to. Do you feel comfortable giving a general example of a thought typically generated by the "self-defeating fear machine"? Sure. "Inner peace must be some kind of delusion, since conflict is inherent in life" Now, I don't want to conjecture about the truth value of the statement, I just know that it is typical of my thinking. There are 2 kinds of 'inner peace'. One is conditional and one is unconditional. The unconditional one is TPTPAU, it's impersonal and what non-duality is about. The conditional one is focus related peace, it's personal and not what non-duality is about, it's what personal growth is about. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 1:01:56 GMT -5
Thats okay, there is nothing that says you have failed if you go from being aware of mind movements to being absorbed by them...when you realize that you got absorbed, just chuckle it off, FORGIVE YOURSELF, and go back to being aware of thoughts for as long as it lasts. Just keep returning, and eventually it will become more common that you aware than unaware, just persist, without beating yourself up. Some methods that are pretty good for dealing with incessant thinking: 1. Watch VERY alertly for each though to appear, try to catch the moment it appears, like you are watching for a drop of water to drip from the faucet so you can catch it....just watch intently. 2. See your thoughts as clouds passing through a clear blue sky...just watch the thoughts pass by in the distant spaciousness of the sky. 3. Imagine an empty space inside your tongue, a totally empty void, and focus your attention on the dark empty void inside your tongue. 4. Sit quietly and focus on the breath moving in and out, see where the natural 'thresholds are where the breath turns from in to out, and out to in, then consciously breath in a little deeper than normal, and breath out a little further than normal, do this for ten breaths, counting each breath, on the 11th breath, and each one after that, continue to breath in a little deeper than normal, and out a little further than normal, but instead of counting, each time you breath out, when the outward breath has gone below the normal threshold for outward breath, give a sharp little exhale by pulling the belly button inward, and just STOP all movement of breath for just a moment. Repeat that on each breath. (Make sure you are belly breathing, not just breathing in this practice, this is VERY important. All of these will make a kind of 'space', or a gap...keep coming back to that gap, and centering your attention on it, and the space will increase, while the volume of the BS in life gets turned down ;-) I'll try it, empty. But see, already there are all these memories of reading UG Krishnamurti disparaging meditation, so I'm like "what's the point if it doesn't work?" I think I've read so many different people that I dont know what's what anymore. Meditation is not going to lead to self-realization or else we could produce self-realized beings at will. So it's not going to give unconditional peace. But it can help creating conditional peace. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 1:03:28 GMT -5
I'll try it, empty. But see, already there are all these memories of reading UG Krishnamurti disparaging meditation, so I'm like "what's the point if it doesn't work?" I think I've read so many different people that I dont know what's what anymore. Forget about meditation supposing to work or not work for some purpose or outcome, do it as though the meditation itself is both the purpose and the outcome...in other words, meditate for meditation's sake, not as a means to something or someplace else. Why would you suggest meditating for meditation's sake when his goal is peace of mind? Sounds counter-intuitive.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 1:20:58 GMT -5
Both. It didn't work as advertised and then he didn't see the point in taking his advice anymore.  empty likes to play teacher at times here, that's what that is all about. It's an open forum, It's an If you can't run with the big dogs, get off the porch, kind of thing. If empty has broken any rules I'm sure somebody would call him on that. We all go through lots of s**t. If you're working on self the s**t just piles up faster, sometimes we get buried. All that matters is that we just get up and keep moving, maybe someday we have a breakthrough. You can see-it in some people............not that empty needs defending....... One of the Labors of Hercules was cleaning out all the s**t of the Augean stables........sounds like a plan......at one point or another........ sdp I just think he demonstrates very well what a trap self-improvement can be and the kind of conflict it creates not only in the personal growther himself but also with those he interacts with - no matter how well-meaning and noble his intentions actually may be. Interactions start losing their directness and freshness. Everything is filtered in order to create a certain impression on others. As for Steve being the teacher, I think he is very knowledgeable about a lot of spiritually related topics and I think he should share his knowledge and experience in the personal growth area. It would be a pity if he would hold that back because I see a lot of members are interested in what he has to share. It should be clear, however, that non of that is non-duality related. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2014 1:55:38 GMT -5
Right. But I rather think Quinn has some psychological baggage (resistance) to work thru which keeps here awake. I can solve anybody's insomnia in one day. Through food, air and impressions we create a certain amount of energy needed for each day, energy for thinking, feeling, moving and keeping the organism functioning. Each center has a certain quality and quantity of energy allotted. Sleep comes when we use up that allotted energy. Now, dreams can use up the extra energy of the intellectual center and the emotional center. I'd say that most insomnia is a result of not using up the energy of the moving center. The answer? Physical activity, a lot of it if necessary. You just wear that ole body out and then be careful or you won't make it to the bed, you'll fall asleep where you are. I bet zd never had a problem sleeping at night, likewise E (I was an electrician, I usually didn't make it past 9:00). EM Cioran the writer/philosopher discovered this by accident. He was plagued by insomnia, so he would get on his bicycle and ride the streets of Paris at night. Now, why does meditation and other interior practices cause less sleep to be required? Because the allotted energy for the day is transformed into a finer energy and stored. Dreaming isn't required to use up the excess energy. sdp Makes sense that physical activity would help curing insomnia temporarily. Just take a long hike up and down the mountains and you'll sleep like a baby, guaranteed. But that's a rather cumbersome solution. And I don't think that sleep is actually required. Your body can relax and replenish just by sitting in an arm chair. Your mind, however, usually cannot. So that's where I see the benefit of a good nights sleep. So, some of those who suffer from insomnia, aren't actually suffering from insomnia but are just a victim of their flawed beliefs about sleep (e.g. 'a healthy adult needs 8 hours of sleep per day'). And others probably just think too much. It would make sense that folks who have problems focusing and paying attention would also suffer from insomnia. Now, why does meditation cause less sleep required? I'd say because it reduces resistance. And less resistance means more energy. So instead of replenishing your energy with sleep (which is a period of no resistance) you can have the same effect with meditation. Also, I don't believe that there's just a certain amount of energy allotted to you per day. It just looks that way because with the usual level of resistance, most barely make it thru the day. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 5:58:59 GMT -5
trust goes a long way in this business Trust is over rated ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 6:56:25 GMT -5
Excellent, really great news. whelp, when ya's ready fer the wreckin' crew, you know where to find'em ..  **Stands quietly with sledge hammer resting on shoulder....** |
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Post by quinn on Apr 26, 2014 7:09:30 GMT -5
And that seems odder to you than a meditation teacher with emphysema who sucks down lung darts? (I'm a substitute meditation teacher - only when the teacher's not there. And then I don't actually 'teach', I usually turn it into a group discussion.) I wasn't aware of that. Now there really is something not quite adding up here. You don't actually keep a dossier on each of us, do you? |
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Post by quinn on Apr 26, 2014 7:18:38 GMT -5
Hey, there.  Yeah, I actually love the discussion part. It's supposed to be about the blah blah vicissitudes and some-number of hindrances and the near enemy/far enemy stuff - I'm making fun of it now, but it's actually pretty amazing teachings. But my favorite part is when we veer off into how that all applies to dealing with Uncle Joe who's judgmental or losing one's temper at work, that sort of thing. None of the people I meditate with have any interest in non-duality, and as far as 'entering stillness' - well, really they're all there for different reasons and with different trajectories. You could probably boil it down to 'alleviate suffering' and/or 'gain clarity', though. T he actual meditation period is around 1 1/2 hours, plenty long enough.That's okay for a yoga class, but for a meditation class?  We do a separate series for the newbies and start with about 10 minutes. The reason for going so long with the rest of us is exactly what you alluded to in another post - working with resistance and the natural tendency to turn away from what's uncomfortable. It helps build up a tolerance for being with discomfort. |
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Post by quinn on Apr 26, 2014 7:36:47 GMT -5
Who said anything about a still mind? It's just relatively quiet - relative to how it used to be. Don't let that self-defeating b@stard-machine tell you "Hey, other people can still their minds, but you can't." It's a lie. It's a lie because just he can't or it's a lie because one can't still one's mind at will? The second one. |
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Post by quinn on Apr 26, 2014 7:56:10 GMT -5
90 minutes huh ..  .. I'd need a frickin' ritalin iv!  I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Djembebum - this is how it went for me: The recursive negative blah blah tape-loop didn't just suddenly stop. There was a point where I realized two things: The first was a very simple obvious (in retrospect) one - that if I am aware of the tape loop, then who I am can not possibly be my thoughts about who I am (the loop). Basic, I know, but quite a revelation to me! The second was about the truth of what was in the loop - everything was true...sometimes. The part I had missed was that the opposite of everything in the loop was also true sometimes. Ego wants us under it's thumb, so it makes finding the negative very easy. Gotta go against the grain to dig up the good stuff. Even realizing those two things didn't stop the tape loop, it just stopped my belief that anything in there really mattered. It was like a little gnat that would buzz around and after awhile it wound down on its own. Meditation didn't have much to do with it except give me a little tool to be able to watch the whole show and not get too worked up when the gnat buzzed around again. It most certainly didn't give me the ability to still my mind, maybe just a little more equilibrium to watch thoughts rise and fall, rise and fall (which is really where the stillness is). |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 8:40:53 GMT -5
Forget about meditation supposing to work or not work for some purpose or outcome, do it as though the meditation itself is both the purpose and the outcome...in other words, meditate for meditation's sake, not as a means to something or someplace else. Why would you suggest meditating for meditation's sake when his goal is peace of mind? Sounds counter-intuitive. People who start meditating in order to quiet a jabbering out-of-control mind (to attain some peace of mind) usually do so under the illusion that they are personal entities with a jabbering out-of-control mind who need to do something in order to get something. So, there are three issues. First, there is the issue of quieting a jabbering mind, second, there is the idea of doing something to get something which is an activity oriented toward an imaginary future, and third, there is the issue of thinking that there is someone, a personal entity, who is being tormented by a jabbering mind. In his post Steve is addressing the second issue, but for someone who is being tormented by a jabbering negative out-of-control mind, it is probably too soon to focus on either the second or third issues. The initial task is to attain some peace of mind and freedom from the incessant negative jabbering. Djem's Krishnamurti quote is being misinterpreted, but D. has read so much about non-duality that he doesn't know what to believe. As someone who once suffered from a jabbering out-of-control mind, I can assure D. that shifting attention away from thoughts to either breath awareness or some other form of ATA will definitely create space in the mind and diminish the amount and intensity of the jabbering. After the mind has calmed down a bit, and is no longer driving one crazy, then the second and third issues can be investigated. The second issue, which Steve addressed, is the importance of becoming present during whatever activity is being pursued. In this case, meditation is the activity, so Steve is saying, in effect, "If you're meditating, do it for no reason at all." IOW, forget the idea of doing something now in order to get something in the future; just be present with whatever is happening. This is good advice, but in this case it's probably too early to be useful. At the moment D. believes that he is a person suffering from a jabbering, negative, out-of-control mind, so the first order of business is to deal with that issue. Reefs advice about working with the body is appropriate, and I would suggest taking some long walks in a park or wilderness area while looking at the world. This would combine physical exercise (getting grounded/getting into the body/getting out of one's head) with ATA. It's like killing two birds with one stone, and I used this approach myself when I first started trying to attain some freedom from the internal dialogue. FWIW I did the walking ATA thing in the afternoons after work and at night I sat on a sofa and counted the breaths, watched the breathing process, felt the breathing process, etc. I can assure D. that if he pursues these types of meditative activities, his mind will calm down and various insights will ensue. His attention will shift more and more often to the world around him and away from his negative thoughts. IMO that's the first and more important step. Later, as he becomes more present, he will appreciate the importance of presence. Eventually, if he "gets out of his head," persists in remaining psychologically present during much of the day, and becomes focused upon "what is," he will discover that he is not who he thinks he is. That is when meditation becomes truly impersonal. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 26, 2014 8:46:06 GMT -5
I envy people who can still their minds. Mine is a self-defeating, recursive fear machine. I've read all I can about non-duality and I still haven't found the Golden Ratio. Most days I am just in a sh## load of pain and frustration. Djembebum - this is how it went for me: The recursive negative blah blah tape-loop didn't just suddenly stop. There was a point where I realized two things: The first was a very simple obvious (in retrospect) one - that if I am aware of the tape loop, then who I am can not possibly be my thoughts about who I am (the loop). Basic, I know, but quite a revelation to me! The second was about the truth of what was in the loop - everything was true...sometimes. The part I had missed was that the opposite of everything in the loop was also true sometimes. Ego wants us under it's thumb, so it makes finding the negative very easy. Gotta go against the grain to dig up the good stuff. Even realizing those two things didn't stop the tape loop, it just stopped my belief that anything in there really mattered. It was like a little gnat that would buzz around and after awhile it wound down on its own. Meditation didn't have much to do with it except give me a little tool to be able to watch the whole show and not get too worked up when the gnat buzzed around again. It most certainly didn't give me the ability to still my mind, maybe just a little more equilibrium to watch thoughts rise and fall, rise and fall (which is really where the stillness is). Good post, Q. |
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