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Post by Reefs on Nov 25, 2014 10:06:07 GMT -5
I have discovered that most of the people who are seeking enlightenment or liberation have no idea what it is. ... really don't have any idea of what they are after. That's what I'm saying. This came as a bit of a shock to me when I started to ask people what it is they think enlightenment is. The most honest would usually kind of scratch their heads as it suddenly would dawn on them, "I really don't know. I'm not really sure." And those who weren't quite capable of mustering that much authenticity would usually spit out what somebody else had said, such as, "Well, it's union with the divine." Other people would come up with their own ideas. In modern vernacular, we call those fantasies. "When enlightenment happens it's going to be ..." fill in the blank. Usually the expectation is that it's going to be something like an infinitely extended orgasm.from para's 1 and 2, chapter 19, "Enlightenment"One might think Mr. Adya is one of the many lurkers here and has been reading along in secrecy.
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Post by laughter on Nov 25, 2014 10:39:16 GMT -5
I have discovered that most of the people who are seeking enlightenment or liberation have no idea what it is. ... really don't have any idea of what they are after. That's what I'm saying. This came as a bit of a shock to me when I started to ask people what it is they think enlightenment is. The most honest would usually kind of scratch their heads as it suddenly would dawn on them, "I really don't know. I'm not really sure." And those who weren't quite capable of mustering that much authenticity would usually spit out what somebody else had said, such as, "Well, it's union with the divine." Other people would come up with their own ideas. In modern vernacular, we call those fantasies. "When enlightenment happens it's going to be ..." fill in the blank. Usually the expectation is that it's going to be something like an infinitely extended orgasm.from para's 1 and 2, chapter 19, "Enlightenment"One might think Mr. Adya is one of the many lurkers here and has been reading along in secrecy.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2014 12:23:05 GMT -5
I have discovered that most of the people who are seeking enlightenment or liberation have no idea what it is. ... really don't have any idea of what they are after. That's what I'm saying. This came as a bit of a shock to me when I started to ask people what it is they think enlightenment is. The most honest would usually kind of scratch their heads as it suddenly would dawn on them, "I really don't know. I'm not really sure." And those who weren't quite capable of mustering that much authenticity would usually spit out what somebody else had said, such as, "Well, it's union with the divine." Other people would come up with their own ideas. In modern vernacular, we call those fantasies. "When enlightenment happens it's going to be ..." fill in the blank. Usually the expectation is that it's going to be something like an infinitely extended orgasm.from para's 1 and 2, chapter 19, "Enlightenment"One might think Mr. Adya is one of the many lurkers here and has been reading along in secrecy. This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood.
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Post by enigma on Nov 25, 2014 22:28:14 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. One might think Mr. Adya is one of the many lurkers here and has been reading along in secrecy. This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood. That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking.
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2014 4:05:14 GMT -5
This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood. That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking. Wouldn't a clue as to the fact that there's seeking happening (as it's being denied) make a difference as well?
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Post by zendancer on Nov 26, 2014 9:35:30 GMT -5
This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood. That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking. Ha ha. There are neither mountains nor no mountains in what I'm pointing to. I'm saying, "Would you like a cup of tea?"
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2014 16:29:07 GMT -5
When you enter the stillness of the eternal now by letting go of the fictional me, you see that reality, enlightenment, or God is like a flame. It's alive, ever moving, ever dancing -- the flame is always here. But the flame is impermanent. There is nothing about a flame that is permanent, static or stable. If it were, it would be dead. Reality is alive, ever on the move, like a flame that leaps up from a log into the air. Truth is a continuous movement. This movement, this aliveness of truth, is constant. It never ceases. It is timeless. Impermanence is the only continuous thing, the only permanent thing. para 15, chap 22 "The Eternal Now"
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2014 20:09:25 GMT -5
That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking. Wouldn't a clue as to the fact that there's seeking happening (as it's being denied) make a difference as well? Yes, though I guess I missed or forgot where seeking is being denied.
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Post by enigma on Nov 26, 2014 20:12:33 GMT -5
That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking. Ha ha. There are neither mountains nor no mountains in what I'm pointing to. I'm saying, "Would you like a cup of tea?" But apparently there is a cup of tea. I'm just saying "ordinary life" is the reappearance of mountains and rivers.
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2014 5:12:58 GMT -5
Wouldn't a clue as to the fact that there's seeking happening (as it's being denied) make a difference as well? Yes, though I guess I missed or forgot where seeking is being denied. In the perpetugasm at full circle, nothing is sought.
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2014 5:14:49 GMT -5
That's 2nd mountain, BTW. As far as what difference it makes, realizing that what is being sought is not 'it' can remove all manner of distractions and alter the dynamics of the seeking. Ha ha. There are neither mountains nor no mountains in what I'm pointing to. I'm saying, "Would you like a cup of tea?" "I don't want tea. (** scowl **) .. why are you pretending to be the host? Here. Drink this." "Now."
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Post by zendancer on Nov 27, 2014 9:33:10 GMT -5
Ha ha. There are neither mountains nor no mountains in what I'm pointing to. I'm saying, "Would you like a cup of tea?" But apparently there is a cup of tea. I'm just saying "ordinary life" is the reappearance of mountains and rivers. E. Sorry, I misunderstood your "2nd mountain." In Zen what you're calling "2nd mountain" is called "3rd mountain." 1 is mountains are mountains, 2 is mountains are not mountains, and 3 is mountains are mountains.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 27, 2014 12:36:11 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. One might think Mr. Adya is one of the many lurkers here and has been reading along in secrecy. This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood. You mean what difference does that insight make? Absolutely speaking, no difference, because realization is acausal. Relatively speaking, there can be all kinds of benefits. I said it not so long ago to Quinn that realization being acausal is actually a reason to rejoice. Some get that, some don't. What I had in mind was SDP's reply to my question "Is your journey quantifiable?" and he said "Yes" after 35 years of being a seeker... and still seeking. How many awakened ones (Real McCoy's) do you know or have you heard of that stated that it turned out exactly as expected?
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Post by runstill on Nov 27, 2014 13:32:28 GMT -5
This is true, but what difference does it make? Seekers are driven by the cosmos to seek. Some seekers, especially those who have had cosmic-consciousness experiences or various other kinds of unity-consciousness experiences in which selfhood disappears for a while, think they know what enlightenment will be like, but, of course, their ideas are based upon the false assumption that there was a person who had those previous experiences. It is only when that particular illusion is penetrated, that self-realization occurs. After that realization sinks in deeply, and is ultimately left behind, the Zen phrase, "your ordinary everyday life is the Way," is finally understood. You mean what difference does that insight make? Absolutely speaking, no difference, because realization is acausal. Relatively speaking, there can be all kinds of benefits. I said it not so long ago to Quinn that realization being acausal is actually a reason to rejoice. Some get that, some don't. What I had in mind was SDP's reply to my question "Is your journey quantifiable?" and he said "Yes" after 35 years of being a seeker... and still seeking. How many awakened ones (Real McCoy's) do you know or have you heard of that stated that it turned out exactly as expected? When you get right down to it, life is acausal...
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Post by zendancer on Nov 27, 2014 19:04:25 GMT -5
This post by Laughter on the quote thread is particularly good, and sort of sums up a lot of the issues we discuss on the forum:
"As the seeker dissolves, then peace is born, and there is stillness. This is not a quality of stillness that has any dependence on an emotional state. At the moment when the seeker starts to dissolve and there is just peace, then the pendulum might swing into a high spiritual state or into a very ordinary state, or even into an unpleasant state, and the peace itself remains completely independent of those states. This is the dawning of the realization that only from the place where the seeker is dissolving can freedom happen because there is no longer any movement toward or away from experience.
The nature of experience is that it changes or undulates like the waves on the ocean. It's supposed to be doing that. Identity starts to shift from "me", the seeker, chasing some particular experience, to just this. Just this. The center is always right here. The center always was right here. It's just the seeker that insisted the center could be in the spiritual high experience. But as the seeker dissolves, then right here is where every instant is the center. It's motionless right here. And you can be having a very ordinary, a very unhappy, or a very extraordinary emotional and psychological experience, and still the center is right here. And only from here does it begin to dawn that everything is an expression of the center. Everything. There is no experience that is more the truth than any other experience, because in the center of it all, there is no seeker. Right here, there is nothing. All is One.
You will discover there is no little "me" in the center occupying the space. Without this me in the center, there is nobody to judge whether a given experience is the right experience or whether it is spiritual. Do you get it? This is it! When my teacher banged his stick on the ground, he showed that everything was arising out of the center where nothing is.
From para's 14 - 16, Chapter 13 "Spiritual Addiction"
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