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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 20:44:38 GMT -5
I'm not saying that we should make up some Panslavic empire. I'm just saying that Russians see other Slavs as part of family, but it doesn't mean that they should be invaded. I'm gonna read up some more on this. You've made it interesting, and I'm bombing out on the non dual discussions around here. Here are some thoughts on the crumbling nation states and rising tribalism around the world... The New Tribalism and the Decline of the Nation State ======================================== Sunday, March 23, 2014 We are witnessing a reversion to tribalism around the world, away from nation states. The the same pattern can be seen even in America – especially in American politics. Before the rise of the nation-state, between the eighteenth and twentieth centuries, the world was mostly tribal. Tribes were united by language, religion, blood, and belief. They feared other tribes and often warred against them. Kings and emperors imposed temporary truces, at most. But in the past three hundred years the idea of nationhood took root in most of the world. Members of tribes started to become citizens, viewing themselves as a single people with patriotic sentiments and duties toward their homeland. Although nationalism never fully supplanted tribalism in some former colonial territories, the transition from tribe to nation was mostly completed by the mid twentieth century. Over the last several decades, though, technology has whittled away the underpinnings of the nation state. National economies have become so intertwined that economic security depends less on national armies than on financial transactions around the world. Global corporations play nations off against each other to get the best deals on taxes and regulations. News and images move so easily across borders that attitudes and aspirations are no longer especially national. Cyber-weapons, no longer the exclusive province of national governments, can originate in a hacker’s garage. Nations are becoming less relevant in a world where everyone and everything is interconnected. The connections that matter most are again becoming more personal. Religious beliefs and affiliations, the nuances of one’s own language and culture, the daily realities of class, and the extensions of one’s family and its values – all are providing people with ever greater senses of identity. The nation state, meanwhile, is coming apart. A single Europe – which seemed within reach a few years ago – is now succumbing to the centrifugal forces of its different languages and cultures. The Soviet Union is gone, replaced by nations split along tribal lines. Vladimir Putin can’t easily annex the whole of Ukraine, only the Russian-speaking part. The Balkans have been Balkanized. Separatist movements have broken out all over — Czechs separating from Slovaks; Kurds wanting to separate from Iraq, Syria, and Turkey; even the Scots seeking separation from England. The turmoil now consuming much of the Middle East stems less from democratic movements trying to topple dictatorships than from ancient tribal conflicts between the two major denominations of Isam – Sunni and Shia. And what about America? The world’s “melting pot” is changing color. Between the 2000 and 2010 census the share of the U.S. population calling itself white dropped from 69 to 64 percent, and more than half of the nation’s population growth came from Hispanics. It’s also becoming more divided by economic class. Increasingly, the rich seem to inhabit a different country than the rest. But America’s new tribalism can be seen most distinctly in its politics. Nowadays the members of one tribe (calling themselves liberals, progressives, and Democrats) hold sharply different views and values than the members of the other (conservatives, Tea Partiers, and Republicans). Each tribe has contrasting ideas about rights and freedoms (for liberals, reproductive rights and equal marriage rights; for conservatives, the right to own a gun and do what you want with your property). Each has its own totems (social insurance versus smaller government) and taboos (cutting entitlements or raising taxes). Each, its own demons (the Tea Party and Ted Cruz; the Affordable Care Act and Barack Obama); its own version of truth (one believes in climate change and evolution; the other doesn’t); and its own media that confirm its beliefs. The tribes even look different. One is becoming blacker, browner, and more feminine. The other, whiter and more male. (Only 2 percent of Mitt Romney’s voters were African-American, for example.) Each tribe is headed by rival warlords whose fighting has almost brought the national government in Washington to a halt. Increasingly, the two tribes live separately in their own regions – blue or red state, coastal or mid-section, urban or rural – with state or local governments reflecting their contrasting values. I’m not making a claim of moral equivalence. Personally, I think the Republican right has gone off the deep end, and if polls are to be believed a majority of Americans agree with me. But the fact is, the two tribes are pulling America apart, often putting tribal goals over the national interest – which is not that different from what’s happening in the rest of the world. robertreich.org Makes sense to me.
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Post by arisha on Mar 24, 2014 21:10:03 GMT -5
BB, your point if view is predetermined by the fact that you are a citizen of Germany, and it is well known that Germany is very much interested in business ties with Russia. So, you are analizing the situation with this bias.
Ukrainians are our Slavic brothers, sure, but it is wrong to say that they don't have their identity as a separate nation. You won't understand the Ukrainian if you speak Russian. It is also wrong to say that the Ukraine is an artificial state. It doesn't matter that Kiev was ""mother of Russian cities". It was in the past, now there is a separate state, the Ukraine, as the political realias have changed. There are different points of view among historians, by the way, about the so called "Kievskaya Rus", some of them question the fact that such a state did exist.
You also should know that it is Putin and his followers who are called "fascists" now, Putin is called "Putler" by many, as there are strong evidences between the methods and strategy used by Hitler before the second World War II, and the methods and strategy used by Putin in the Ukraine.
If you call the rulers of the Ukraine criminals, then why don't you call Putin the criminal ? There is no difference. Putin violated the International law and annexed the territory of the independent state. His aim is to restore the borders of the former USSR, and to create the new world order. But you just want to find all kind of justifications for Putin, and all kind of judgements for the Ukrainian leaders, because it happened now that the Germans need Russian gas, and business ties with Russia.
There is much more evidence in the Internet about anti-Putin tendencies, very few people are pro-Putin. Even in Russia there are very many of those who are against Putin, in spite of the problems they are having because of that.
Putin is "liked" only by those who are dependent on him very much.
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Post by arisha on Mar 24, 2014 21:11:29 GMT -5
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Post by arisha on Mar 24, 2014 21:41:49 GMT -5
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Post by arisha on Mar 24, 2014 21:46:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 21:57:55 GMT -5
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 7:17:41 GMT -5
I think Robert Reich's view on tribalism is too simplistic. It's not really a single phenomenon, there are many separate reasons.
For example let's look at what he calls emergence of tribalism in Europe. The promise was that we get a EU of fatherlands, where all nations retain full sovereignity. Instead the members of EU lose their sovereignity to the unelected apparatchiks of the EU, who are puppets of the big banks. The European parliament can decide nothing, only the unelected commission decides everything. Of course people react against it and they say "that's not what we signed up for, we want our nation back".
Then the other example is Crimean so-called "tribalism", a totally different phenomenon. And I have already explained it.
Then you have to consider situations where the vast majority is living in peace in some union that encompasses many different nations and the majority approves of the union, and then foreign forces with a lot of money finance violent separatists. That's not tribalism, it's just a war waged on a country from within it, some foreign country is trying to break up another country into bits an pieces. The normal folks, fathers and mothers who go to work and have children to care for, they stay at home and are scared and want to have nothing to do with it. Like in Ukraine, the normal people are sitting at home and are frightened.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 7:46:00 GMT -5
A predicatble reaction of western MSM to the Tymo leak. Oh, she was just a little bit angry. And what she said about nuking Russians, was obviously not so, because... well... that's what she claims. FSB are the bad guys here, what business do they have listening to their phonecalls. Imagine the reaction if Putin would say such things. And in the meantime this: rt.com/news/muzychko-avakov-revenge-ukraine-109/
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 11:30:23 GMT -5
Even more great news!
Obozo calls Murica "the most powerful nation in the world" and Russia is just a "regional power".
I love it! Funny how a regional power can push around the world's most powerful nation, and funny how the most powerful nation tries to convince a regional power of its might, similar to how they do it with their embarrasing smack talk on the basketball courts in Compton.
#1 rule for everyone, no matter how old, how rich, how powerful: "first think, then talk".
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 15:03:29 GMT -5
A German think-tank, financed by the government published a paper today. It says that the Kiev government has zero acceptance in the east. There are nobody in the government with whom people from east and south identify. The Kiev government has sent terrible signals to the eastern regions and so has very little influence. By putting the same old oligarchs in office in the east it weakens itself even more. The authors even doubt if the 25may elections can take place, because the necessary safety and stability can#t be guaranteed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 15:23:30 GMT -5
Even more great news! Obozo calls Murica "the most powerful nation in the world" and Russia is just a "regional power". I love it! Funny how a regional power can push around the world's most powerful nation, and funny how the most powerful nation tries to convince a regional power of its might, similar to how they do it with their embarrasing smack talk on the basketball courts in Compton. #1 rule for everyone, no matter how old, how rich, how powerful: "first think, then talk". haha.. your beloved motherland has been kicked out of the G8, the country in recession, the MICEX in bear market (oh the irony)... and once we crush the price of oil, you will be destitute .. bawahaaa
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 16:15:26 GMT -5
haha.. your beloved motherland has been kicked out of the G8, the country in recession, the MICEX in bear market (oh the irony)... and once we crush the price of oil, you will be destitute .. bawahaaa Are you serious? Okay, I'll bite, what the heck. Look who else is in the G8, only vasals of the Anglozionist empire, now they can jérk off together, who gives a shít? Australians introuced a vote in G20 to kick Russia out, all BRICS states voted for Russia. The whole world is in recession. Nobody cares about MICEX. Your criminal empire is based on debt, Russia has no debt. Yes, Russia exports a lot of oil and gas, and guess what, the price is only going to rise, the price is never going to fall significantly unless some miracle happens and we discover free energy. Once the house of cards that your banking empire is based on crushes down you will be toast. The Petrodollar will die soon and then it's bye bye Murica. You don't know how to live within your means, but Russians know how to live way beneath their means. And most importantly, normal people all over the world are applauding Russia. And at the same time everyone absolutely hates hates hates Murica.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 16:25:25 GMT -5
haha.. your beloved motherland has been kicked out of the G8, the country in recession, the MICEX in bear market (oh the irony)... and once we crush the price of oil, you will be destitute .. bawahaaa Are you serious? nope, just tugging on the Bolsheviks cape... but as they say .. all politics is local, and our little village here is running with the bulls... the Murican dream baby.. all is well..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 17:00:12 GMT -5
Once the house of cards that your banking empire is based on crushes down you will be toast. The Petrodollar will die soon and then it's bye bye Murica. You don't know how to live within your means, but Russians know how to live way beneath their means. The American middle class and the poor know how to live within their means. We've been learning it since the Nixon administration (He took us off the gold standard, and introduced petro-dollars). But that isn't enough for the wealthiest, so they continue to steal what wealth we have left. And most importantly, normal people all over the world are applauding Russia. And at the same time everyone absolutely hates hates hates Murica. I'm a normal people, and I don't hate America. At least, not yet.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Mar 25, 2014 19:44:13 GMT -5
I'm a normal people, and I don't hate America. At least, not yet. I am not against the American people. I am against their government. I believe that people are basically the same everywhere, regardless of religion, nationality and race. All people are fathers and mothers who have the same goal wherever they live. I am against those who spread lies and entice hatred between people. And I am against the ignorance that makes people believe the lies.
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