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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 4, 2013 13:58:15 GMT -5
Understanding is often wordless. The man walking down a sidewalk does not have to think at all about walking around a big pothole. Seeing alone informs him. There is a wordless, and therefore non-thinking way of understanding many things. When the light comes on the truth about the snake being just a piece of rope is clearly seen. Words, therefore thinking about it, are not required to realize this truth. Sure, can be. It depends on how you define understanding, thought and mind. Is understanding always conceptual? Can thought be wordless? Is mind what we call conceptualizing? I don't really want to get into definitions, BTW. Yes, everyone brings their own meaning of words to the table. Words like knowledge, understanding, belief, realization and such can mean different things to different people. It helps in understanding/communicating when we are clear about how another is using certain words.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 14:01:59 GMT -5
If you can put a dent in it it ain't whole. The only thing that can be sliced up is an objectified shadow. I'm not following you. How can we put a dent in spirit-mind-body? I suspect we're saying the same thing here. Well we are and we aren't. If I say "you are not you're mind", I'm referring to something that isn't you. I am not anything that appears to me but I'm not separate from any of it either. All I can do in speaking with you, in thinking, in communicating, is to cut, to discern: even in integrating, I draw a line between that which was integrated and that left out of the integration ... but there's no worry about splitting up some "whole" ... any reference to a "whole" isn't something that can't not be split apart conceptually.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 14:04:42 GMT -5
Sure, can be. It depends on how you define understanding, thought and mind. Is understanding always conceptual? Can thought be wordless? Is mind what we call conceptualizing? I don't really want to get into definitions, BTW. Yes, everyone brings their own meaning of words to the table. Words like knowledge, understanding, belief, realization and such can mean different things to different people. It helps in understanding/communicating when we are clear about how another is using certain words. Definitely helps in the exploration and can even drive the exploration for sure ... but it's not the ideas that are worth exploring. What's worth exploring is each other ... but that said, it's sometimes worth the trouble to hack out a common vocabulary, no doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 14:08:45 GMT -5
I'm not following you. How can we put a dent in spirit-mind-body? I suspect we're saying the same thing here. Well we are and we aren't. If I say "you are not you're mind", I'm referring to something that isn't you. I am not anything that appears to me but I'm not separate from any of it either. All I can do in speaking with you, in thinking, in communicating, is to cut, to discern: even in integrating, I draw a line between that which was integrated and that left out of the integration ... but there's no worry about splitting up some "whole" ... any reference to a "whole" isn't something that can't not be split apart conceptually. I have a physical body (energy, matter), a subtle body (mind, ego, intellect), and a causal body (spirit, soul). There is nothing in creation that is not myself.
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 14:22:27 GMT -5
Well we are and we aren't. If I say "you are not you're mind", I'm referring to something that isn't you. I am not anything that appears to me but I'm not separate from any of it either. All I can do in speaking with you, in thinking, in communicating, is to cut, to discern: even in integrating, I draw a line between that which was integrated and that left out of the integration ... but there's no worry about splitting up some "whole" ... any reference to a "whole" isn't something that can't not be split apart conceptually. I have a physical body (energy, matter), a subtle body (mind, ego, intellect), and a causal body (spirit, soul). There is nothing in creation that is not myself. FWIW, wrote this to a friend a few months back: One interesting pointer that some state is that the subject cannot observe itself -- it's a simple argument: what you are can't be anything that appears to you. This gets one to the witness but then there is still the witness and what is witnessed. There is of course no valid description of the recognition of the illusion of the subject/object split because we have to use language and the underlying basis of language (or any means of communication, or any embodiment of information, for that matter) is this split. Likewise, the absence of separation is always the case, but projecting this state of affairs into terms the mind can get a grip on might describe the realization of that as an inflection point where neti-neti ends and "I am none of this" carries the same meaning as "I am all of this". "both, neither and beyond both"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 14:35:28 GMT -5
I have a physical body (energy, matter), a subtle body (mind, ego, intellect), and a causal body (spirit, soul). There is nothing in creation that is not myself. FWIW, wrote this to a friend a few months back: One interesting pointer that some state is that the subject cannot observe itself -- it's a simple argument: what you are can't be anything that appears to you. This gets one to the witness but then there is still the witness and what is witnessed. There is of course no valid description of the recognition of the illusion of the subject/object split because we have to use language and the underlying basis of language (or any means of communication, or any embodiment of information, for that matter) is this split. Likewise, the absence of separation is always the case, but projecting this state of affairs into terms the mind can get a grip on might describe the realization of that as an inflection point where neti-neti ends and "I am none of this" carries the same meaning as "I am all of this". "both, neither and beyond both" We can't perceive ourselves as awareness when we have a quiet mind?
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 4, 2013 14:40:54 GMT -5
Yes, everyone brings their own meaning of words to the table. Words like knowledge, understanding, belief, realization and such can mean different things to different people. It helps in understanding/communicating when we are clear about how another is using certain words. Definitely helps in the exploration and can even drive the exploration for sure ... but it's not the ideas that are worth exploring. What's worth exploring is each other ... but that said, it's sometimes worth the trouble to hack out a common vocabulary, no doubt. Fair enough. But if you bring me hash browns when I ordered home fries, you will be in danger of missing a tip!
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 15:22:34 GMT -5
Experience tells me that I am other than my history and conditioning. In fact, I am who I am before I knew a single word or had a first memory. I only know that I had a first memory because I was there prior to it, otherwise how could I have witnessed it when it arose? Is this a conclusion or an experience or both or something other? In the question you ask above, it seems like a conclusion. Might be right about that, I have no clue. But I can think of an alternative explanation for the phenomena which is not the same conclusion. For example, it might be that awareness is mythical. The fact of memory necessitates cognition of that memory. Another way of saying it: If a memory is like a little movie of some past event, there is no movie without light. No light no movie. This does not mean that the light is always on. Enigma gets around this question by saying it's a realization. To me that sounds like extra special knowledge is gained. But I have no realization to compare it to, so that's just how it sounds to me. It reminds me of when you ask how someone learned of God and they say the Bible. And you say okay what's the Bible and they say God's Word. And then you ask who says? and they say The Bible. "The word "awareness" is misleading. Awareness is not a divided state; there are not two states -- awareness and something else. There are not two things. It is not that you are aware of something. Awareness is simply the action of the brain. The idea that you can USE awareness to bring about some happier state of affairs, some sort of transformation, or God knows what, is, for me, absurd. Awareness cannot be used to bring about a change in yourself or the world around you." -UG
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 15:42:25 GMT -5
Countless people are living in abject slavery to the non-stop voice in the head with its incessant voicing of all manner of voice-thoughts that the person themselves have absolutely no control over. It is often a severe and condemning voice that produce feelings of inadequacy and horrible guilt. It drives millions and millions to drink and drugs for relief. Jails, Institutions and Psychiatrist offices everywhere are filled with such as these, but rarely do they find, or are they directed to, the only place where true relief can be found...the Present Moment. Teach a man to pay attention to what is...or to, for example, notice the space between objects, or even now, to the space between his eyes and the monitor he reads these words upon, and the mind stops cold. The relief one experiences is dramatic, especially in the beginning, and the more one practices such a practice, his ability to separate from his mind and come to stillness grows. But is this enough to cure him of bondage to thinking? Not directly, but it does bring enough separation from thought, inner stillness and peace to help him to eventually realize and align with his True Nature, which is Stillness...Freedom Itself. An agitated mind can never come to realize anything but agitation. So, practices that still the mind are more than useful. They are essential to making the way to Freedom possible, in the same way that the road to the Golden Kingdom is essential. But once you get there, all roads become unnecessary. I've simply reported that ATA did not work for me even though I practised it for a long time and that Earnest probably just got lucky. What does your wall of text have to do with my comment? You may have already explained it but what were you expecting to happen?
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Post by topology on Jul 4, 2013 15:44:54 GMT -5
I've simply reported that ATA did not work for me even though I practised it for a long time and that Earnest probably just got lucky. What does your wall of text have to do with my comment? You may have already explained it but what were you expecting to happen? He said he expected enlightenment, but I don't think I got a response about what image of enlightenment he had in mind.
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 15:46:03 GMT -5
But, the mind expresses its power through attention and intention. We're carving up wholeness again. Mind Body Spirit Hi verbed. The problem, as I see it, is the tyranny of an out-of-control mind. Right. Someone who doesn't find themselves burdened by mind to begin with may venture into spirituality only to wonder what in the world all the fuss is about. Meanwhile, the overthinkers are busy basking in relief from oppressive thinking.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 4, 2013 15:46:28 GMT -5
I've simply reported that ATA did not work for me even though I practised it for a long time and that Earnest probably just got lucky. What does your wall of text have to do with my comment? You may have already explained it but what were you expecting to happen? I have no idea what exactly to expect, but it should be something different from ordinary experience. Why else would I do ATA?
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 15:48:53 GMT -5
Tzu freaks me out at times with his clarity. Me too.
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 15:55:43 GMT -5
I know. I read your posts. Looks like tzu just nailed mind's role pretty good. Tzu freaks me out at times with his clarity. Tzu make some valid points at times but I disagree with him when he asserts that stillness is simply another aspect of mind. As I see it, if the mind were the moon, inner stillness would be like the space which makes the existence of the moon possible. Consciousness is like that to me. The Inner Space in which everything, including mind, have existence, and without which couldn't exist at all. Mind by definition is never still.
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Post by silence on Jul 4, 2013 16:01:58 GMT -5
You may have already explained it but what were you expecting to happen? I have no idea what exactly to expect, but it should be something different from ordinary experience. Why else would I do ATA? So if you had some unordinary experience you would have concluded it worked?
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