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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:38:05 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yes you did, by stating one: Well there are fat middle-aged dudes on the Miss America panel ... so have at it ... In your haste to make me 'wrong'.. you have erred.. detach.. Be well.. Ahhh ... the not that I missed. Thanks! ... yes, now I have to admit that those words were hasty.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:40:50 GMT -5
What's clear is that there's dozens of messages sourced from the tzu login that challenge, in one way or another, this concept of impersonality. It's safe to speculate despite your likely denial, that this is something that bothers you. "Whatever you fight you strengthen, whatever you resist persists" -ET If the above quote represents a true principle, what might it mean in light of messengers of opposing views on a discussion forum? Do you see Tzu' and I fighting one another? There's no doubt that it can be taken for that, yes. I'm not going to claim that, in all cases is not what's happening. In those cases where that's happening, yes, what will persist will persist until it doesn't. In those cases where it's not, the principle doesn't apply.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 12:55:04 GMT -5
We have no choice in the time of our birth or in the gender we will be. We have no choice in what family we are born into or the color of our eyes and hair. We have no choice in what language we will speak or the traditions we will follow, or the kinds of foods we will enjoy and eat. We have no choice in our name, the religion of our birth, the values we will be taught, the education we will receive. We have no choice about the amount of love or hatred our parents will have for us, the approval and disapproval we will receive from our peers, the thoughts of right and wrong, and ideas and beliefs conditioned into our head. Before the time of understanding we have no choice in our loves and hates, attractions or aversions, slaveries or compulsions, nor the relationships we will be attracted to. All in all we have no choice in the culturally imposed "person" we grow to becomes, and whom we will come "think" ourselves to be. In fact, we may even come to defend that "identity" to the death, and perhaps even come to put others on the rack, or even to death, for not being with us or our kind. But if we could see, on the level of personhood, that on the day of our physical birth, we were a blank slate, upon which our "personhood" was written by sheer circumstance, we might begin to look beyond "personhood" to see what it is that personhood itself arises in. If one could see, for example, that if I took you on the day of your birth and put you in a family in Paris instead of with your actual parents, today you would act and think all things French, or if I put you in a family in Lebanon you might be eating kibbeh and looking forward to your evening prayers just now, or if I put you in a family of cannibals in Borneo, you might be having serious complexes from not being able to catch and eat as many people in a month as your witch-doctor says you should. If you can see this, then you are able to see that "personhood" is not ultimately the real, but that who you are prior to your imposed "personhood" is getting closer to the Truth. The fact that we don't have control over many of the aspects of our lives doesn't imply anything about volition. The post is pointing out that the idea of personhood is just that, an idea or illusion of actual personhood, albeit an idea of personhood based on unique conditions and circumstance, and as such, no real choice ever can be made by that which in and of itself is not real to begin with.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 13:02:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. We have no choice in the time of our birth or in the gender we will be. We have no choice in what family we are born into or the color of our eyes and hair. We have no choice in what language we will speak or the traditions we will follow, or the kinds of foods we will enjoy and eat. We have no choice in our name, the religion of our birth, the values we will be taught, the education we will receive. We have no choice about the amount of love or hatred our parents will have for us, the approval and disapproval we will receive from our peers, the thoughts of right and wrong, and ideas and beliefs conditioned into our head. Before the time of understanding we have no choice in our loves and hates, attractions or aversions, slaveries or compulsions, nor the relationships we will be attracted to. All in all we have no choice in the culturally imposed "person" we grow to becomes, and whom we will come "think" ourselves to be. In fact, we may even come to defend that "identity" to the death, and perhaps even come to put others on the rack, or even to death, for not being with us or our kind. But if we could see, on the level of personhood, that on the day of our physical birth, we were a blank slate, upon which our "personhood" was written by sheer circumstance, we might begin to look beyond "personhood" to see what it is that personhood itself arises in. If one could see, for example, that if I took you on the day of your birth and put you in a family in Paris instead of with your actual parents, today you would act and think all things French, or if I put you in a family in Lebanon you might be eating kibbeh and looking forward to your evening prayers just now, or if I put you in a family of cannibals in Borneo, you might be having serious complexes from not being able to catch and eat as many people in a month as your witch-doctor says you should. If you can see this, then you are able to see that "personhood" is not ultimately the real, but that who you are prior to your imposed "personhood" is getting closer to the Truth. Options about physical issues are constrained by the parameters of physical existence.. 'choice', as i understand it, refers to who/what you 'are'.. the 'choice' represents how you interpret you existence, as in those that choose to believe there is no choice, and those that choose to choose.. you are arguing for self-limitation where there is none other than what is chosen.. you are 'thinking-up'/imagining scenarios that you choose to support what you want to believe.. Be well.. I don't know how anyone can believe there is no choice. Obviously, choosing happens. The issue is whether or not one has a choice about what it will be. I'd say whether or not one believes there's a choice about that doesn't dramatically alter the choices made, though there are some differences.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 13:08:15 GMT -5
It is quite possible that after we 'die' our 'stuff' becomes our 'personal effects." Which would express themselves as what's been described above along the lines of 'latent tendencies.' I don't 'know' this for sure. Yes, I know what you are saying. Karmic vasanas etc. I do not deny that, if true, it could have an effect on inclinations and such...kind of like spiritual DNA. Jesus said that "the sins of the father are passed on unto the fourth and fifth generations" Perhaps this is what he was pointing to. I don't know about this for sure either. I enjoyed how you expressed the remedy in the second paragraph. Felt intuitively right.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 13:12:47 GMT -5
"Whatever you fight you strengthen, whatever you resist persists" -ET If the above quote represents a true principle, what might it mean in light of messengers of opposing views on a discussion forum? Do you see Tzu' and I fighting one another? There's no doubt that it can be taken for that, yes. I'm not going to claim that, in all cases is not what's happening. In those cases where that's happening, yes, what will persist will persist until it doesn't. In those cases where it's not, the principle doesn't apply. Are you not trying to convince Tzu of the errors of his ways? Are you not trying to rid him of his wrong view of things?
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 13:13:52 GMT -5
wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending. Perhaps tzu is not pretending, perhaps there's just the unconscious tendency to believe his projections are real. Axshulee, projections are unconscious 'by definition'.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 13:16:46 GMT -5
Right, the person cannot be free. yu ... er, I mean ... nope! Right, the person can't be right either. Hehe.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 13:26:59 GMT -5
Do you see Tzu' and I fighting one another? There's no doubt that it can be taken for that, yes. I'm not going to claim that, in all cases is not what's happening. In those cases where that's happening, yes, what will persist will persist until it doesn't. In those cases where it's not, the principle doesn't apply. Are you not trying to convince Tzu of the errors of his ways? Are you not trying to rid him of his wrong view of things? If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw.
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 13:41:42 GMT -5
Are you not trying to convince Tzu of the errors of his ways? Are you not trying to rid him of his wrong view of things? If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. Apologies for the silintrusion, but I don't see where those selected posts are any indication of Tzu's lyin' to himself. 'all the time'? Isn't that eggsageration to try n strengthen your own argument?
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 13:45:01 GMT -5
If my content is that then the principle applies. I can see how you might see the content being only that, but it's not. "To thine own self be true". If I see Tzu' lying to himself and it's really easy to point it out with the words on a page ( like here), I'll do it. Don't mistake holding another to the high standard of honesty with a conceptual quibble -- that's a mistake that Tzu' makes almost all the time btw. Apologies for the silintrusion, but I don't see where those selected posts are any indication of Tzu's lyin' to himself. 'all the time'? Isn't that eggsageration to try n strengthen your own argument? It was one example of a clear projection. You either sees it or ya' don't. ... what, you don't find Tzu to be confrontational? How many nice, friendly, breezy, casual chats have you seen him have?
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Post by silver on Jul 5, 2013 13:52:57 GMT -5
Apologies for the silintrusion, but I don't see where those selected posts are any indication of Tzu's lyin' to himself. 'all the time'? Isn't that eggsageration to try n strengthen your own argument? It was one example of a clear projection. You either sees it or ya' don't. ... what, you don't find Tzu to be confrontational? How many nice, friendly, breezy, casual chats have you seen him have? Well...isn't the word projection one of rubber-glue origins? I think back on yesterday - literally - after Jly's fine video production of Tzu v Enigma and how Tzu said afterwards his voice is more like his combatant in the film - a decidedly laid back Southern accent - and here, all this time, I'd been reading his posts with a voice - entirely imagined of course, not unlike some tough wrestling dude, fully capable of projecting that voice....I think his words would be taken differently - totally - if we could hear his real voice - I think that's absolutely true of everyone, naturally...Far more is lost in the translation without the body language and inflections/tone of voice. Even I question myself when I consistently find myself agreeing with stuff he says (same w/Andrew) and not so much with the ones who disagree with him/them.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 13:55:25 GMT -5
The fact that we don't have control over many of the aspects of our lives doesn't imply anything about volition. The post is pointing out that the idea of personhood is just that, an idea or illusion of actual personhood, albeit an idea of personhood based on unique conditions and circumstance, and as such, no real choice ever can be made by that which in and of itself is not real to begin with. Well, yes, i did hear that message toward the end, though it seemed like the bulk of the post was about choices being the result of conditioning, which is true, but Tzu was asking for evidence of volition.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 14:01:14 GMT -5
It was one example of a clear projection. You either sees it or ya' don't. ... what, you don't find Tzu to be confrontational? How many nice, friendly, breezy, casual chats have you seen him have? Well...isn't the word projection one of rubber-glue origins? I think back on yesterday - literally - after Jly's fine video production of Tzu v Enigma and how Tzu said afterwards his voice is more like his combatant in the film - a decidedly laid back Southern accent - and here, all this time, I'd been reading his posts with a voice - entirely imagined of course, not unlike some tough wrestling dude, fully capable of projecting that voice....I think his words would be taken differently - totally - if we could hear his real voice - I think that's absolutely true of everyone, naturally...Far more is lost in the translation without the body language and inflections/tone of voice. Even I question myself when I consistently find myself agreeing with stuff he says (same w/Andrew) and not so much with the ones who disagree with him/them. If you did a word cloud on his content "BELIEF" would be in the middle of it and by far and away the anchor -- like I said, he sees the discussion here as one big argument over concepts. To say that this misses the point about this board is such an understatement as to miss the point. As far as reaching out to him personally, ask him what he thinks of me personally or how he sees how I see him personally. To say that you'd likely be surprised is yet another understatement. Do you see me interacting with everyone here exactly the same way? Tzu' likes to fight, so it's what I give'em ... ... he doesn't really have an ear for much else.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 14:04:32 GMT -5
Do you see Tzu' and I fighting one another? There's no doubt that it can be taken for that, yes. I'm not going to claim that, in all cases is not what's happening. In those cases where that's happening, yes, what will persist will persist until it doesn't. In those cases where it's not, the principle doesn't apply. Are you not trying to convince Tzu of the errors of his ways? Are you not trying to rid him of his wrong view of things? I do that sort of thing rather continuously here, but the interest is in looking to see what is true, and there isn't the sense of resistance or struggle associated with that endeavor. I guess the point is that just because one says the sky is blue and not orange, it doesn't necessarily imply resistance. Even the focus on trying to 'rid one of wrong views' doesn't imply resistance, unless you also want to trow all teachers and help professionals into that category too. You could be said to be doing the same now. I don't know if you are experiencing resistance or not.
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