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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 11:36:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. No point in continuing the discussion when you shut down like this. If you don't want to be confronted with the content of what you write ... then don't. Good.. your more astute than is evident.. the error is in your belief that there is something to "confront".. you've interpreted 'content' for your own intentions.. Be well.. What's clear is that there's dozens of messages sourced from the tzu login that challenge, in one way or another, this concept of impersonality. It's safe to speculate despite your likely denial, that this is something that bothers you.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 11:37:58 GMT -5
Greetings.. Due to various requirements and assumptions, gathering money may be seen as the only recourse. I've got kids and debt. Abandoning those responsibilities would come with a whole lot of negative feedback from all directions. The effort towards gathering money is not much of a free-will without-duress, choice. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured.. Be well.. wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 11:40:07 GMT -5
We have no choice in the time of our birth or in the gender we will be. We have no choice in what family we are born into or the color of our eyes and hair. We have no choice in what language we will speak or the traditions we will follow, or the kinds of foods we will enjoy and eat. We have no choice in our name, the religion of our birth, the values we will be taught, the education we will receive. We have no choice about the amount of love or hatred our parents will have for us, the approval and disapproval we will receive from our peers, the thoughts of right and wrong, and ideas and beliefs conditioned into our head. Before the time of understanding we have no choice in our loves and hates, attractions or aversions, slaveries or compulsions, nor the relationships we will be attracted to. All in all we have no choice in the culturally imposed "person" we grow to becomes, and whom we will come "think" ourselves to be. In fact, we may even come to defend that "identity" to the death, and perhaps even come to put others on the rack, or even to death, for not being with us or our kind. It is quite possible that after we 'die' our 'stuff' becomes our 'personal effects." Which would express themselves as what's been described above along the lines of 'latent tendencies.' I don't 'know' this for sure. Yes, I know what you are saying. Karmic vasanas etc. I do not deny that, if true, it could have an effect on inclinations and such...kind of like spiritual DNA. Jesus said that "the sins of the father are passed on unto the fourth and fifth generations" Perhaps this is what he was pointing to. I don't know about this for sure either.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 11:43:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. what can you offer as evidence that there is no volition in what is chosen? We have no choice in the time of our birth or in the gender we will be. We have no choice in what family we are born into or the color of our eyes and hair. We have no choice in what language we will speak or the traditions we will follow, or the kinds of foods we will enjoy and eat. We have no choice in our name, the religion of our birth, the values we will be taught, the education we will receive. We have no choice about the amount of love or hatred our parents will have for us, the approval and disapproval we will receive from our peers, the thoughts of right and wrong, and ideas and beliefs conditioned into our head. Before the time of understanding we have no choice in our loves and hates, attractions or aversions, slaveries or compulsions, nor the relationships we will be attracted to. All in all we have no choice in the culturally imposed "person" we grow to becomes, and whom we will come "think" ourselves to be. In fact, we may even come to defend that "identity" to the death, and perhaps even come to put others on the rack, or even to death, for not being with us or our kind. But if we could see, on the level of personhood, that on the day of our physical birth, we were a blank slate, upon which our "personhood" was written by sheer circumstance, we might begin to look beyond "personhood" to see what it is that personhood itself arises in. If one could see, for example, that if I took you on the day of your birth and put you in a family in Paris instead of with your actual parents, today you would act and think all things French, or if I put you in a family in Lebanon you might be eating kibbeh and looking forward to your evening prayers just now, or if I put you in a family of cannibals in Borneo, you might be having serious complexes from not being able to catch and eat as many people in a month as your witch-doctor says you should. If you can see this, then you are able to see that "personhood" is not ultimately the real, but that who you are prior to your imposed "personhood" is getting closer to the Truth. Options about physical issues are constrained by the parameters of physical existence.. 'choice', as i understand it, refers to who/what you 'are'.. the 'choice' represents how you interpret you existence, as in those that choose to believe there is no choice, and those that choose to choose.. you are arguing for self-limitation where there is none other than what is chosen.. you are 'thinking-up'/imagining scenarios that you choose to support what you want to believe.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 11:45:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured.. Be well.. wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending. Perhaps tzu is not pretending, perhaps there's just the unconscious tendency to believe his projections are real.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 11:48:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured.. Be well.. wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending. I didn't imply or claim that i'm not judgmental, and.. yes, you are judgmental.. i intend and endeavor to judge based on clarity, though.. you, seem attached to intellect, the difference is noteworthy.. your turn.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 11:57:12 GMT -5
wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending. Perhaps tzu is not pretending, perhaps there's just the unconscious tendency to believe his projections are real. Either way ... it's all make-believe.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 12:01:45 GMT -5
I agree that choice does not require certainty of outcome to be validated as free choice. What it does require is volition in what is chosen, and there is none. A robot can be programmed to make a choice, but this activity in no way implies that it could have chosen otherwise. In that case you can't equate "Control of" and freedom. This evokes, for example, a common facet of the consensus trance about wealth. I was never very materialistic ... never wanted the finest things -- but I did want lots of money in order to not have to work, to not have to worry about the future. The realization of freedom in this sense is related to "control of", and here we can see how certainty plays in because even if I had been able to get enough money to consider myself free there would have been no certainty of keeping it. In the context of the realization of freedom control simply isn't an issue but on the other hand, how can a person ever consider themselves to be free absent control or, more aptly, the illusion thereof?Right, the person cannot be free.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:02:24 GMT -5
Greetings.. wow ... and I'm the judgmental one. Pretending to be conscious of your projections is just pretending. I didn't imply or claim that i'm not judgmental, and.. yes, you are judgmental.. i intend and endeavor to judge based on clarity, though.. you, seem attached to intellect, the difference is noteworthy.. your turn.. Be well.. Yes you did, by stating one: Greetings.. Due to various requirements and assumptions, gathering money may be seen as the only recourse. I've got kids and debt. Abandoning those responsibilities would come with a whole lot of negative feedback from all directions. The effort towards gathering money is not much of a free-will without-duress, choice. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured..Be well.. i intend and endeavor to judge based on clarity Well there are fat middle-aged dudes on the Miss America panel ... so have at it ...
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:03:11 GMT -5
In that case you can't equate "Control of" and freedom. This evokes, for example, a common facet of the consensus trance about wealth. I was never very materialistic ... never wanted the finest things -- but I did want lots of money in order to not have to work, to not have to worry about the future. The realization of freedom in this sense is related to "control of", and here we can see how certainty plays in because even if I had been able to get enough money to consider myself free there would have been no certainty of keeping it. In the context of the realization of freedom control simply isn't an issue but on the other hand, how can a person ever consider themselves to be free absent control or, more aptly, the illusion thereof?Right, the person cannot be free. yu ... er, I mean ... nope!
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 12:05:40 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I didn't imply or claim that i'm not judgmental, and.. yes, you are judgmental.. i intend and endeavor to judge based on clarity, though.. you, seem attached to intellect, the difference is noteworthy.. your turn.. Be well.. Yes you did, by stating one: Greetings.. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured..Be well.. i intend and endeavor to judge based on clarity Well there are fat middle-aged dudes on the Miss America panel ... so have at it ... In your haste to make me 'wrong'.. you have erred.. detach.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Jul 5, 2013 12:07:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. Due to various requirements and assumptions, gathering money may be seen as the only recourse. I've got kids and debt. Abandoning those responsibilities would come with a whole lot of negative feedback from all directions. The effort towards gathering money is not much of a free-will without-duress, choice. There are options, you have chosen an option that suits your nature, safe and structured.. Be well.. Yes, the choice gets exercised but the choosing was not as free as many like to believe. As Laughter alluded to, freedom does not come from choosing between cell door A and cell door B. Freedom comes from realizing that one is not a prisoner trapped in a prison.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:09:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yes you did, by stating one: Well there are fat middle-aged dudes on the Miss America panel ... so have at it ... In your haste to make me 'wrong'.. you have erred.. detach.. Be well.. So you consider pointing out your self-contradictions, which in turn shed light on your projections, to be "making you wrong"? I consider it following that Willy Shakes prescription ... you know the one ... it involves that 5-letter word that starts with "t" that never fails to set you off like an M-80.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 12:33:29 GMT -5
what can you offer as evidence that there is no volition in what is chosen? We have no choice in the time of our birth or in the gender we will be. We have no choice in what family we are born into or the color of our eyes and hair. We have no choice in what language we will speak or the traditions we will follow, or the kinds of foods we will enjoy and eat. We have no choice in our name, the religion of our birth, the values we will be taught, the education we will receive. We have no choice about the amount of love or hatred our parents will have for us, the approval and disapproval we will receive from our peers, the thoughts of right and wrong, and ideas and beliefs conditioned into our head. Before the time of understanding we have no choice in our loves and hates, attractions or aversions, slaveries or compulsions, nor the relationships we will be attracted to. All in all we have no choice in the culturally imposed "person" we grow to becomes, and whom we will come "think" ourselves to be. In fact, we may even come to defend that "identity" to the death, and perhaps even come to put others on the rack, or even to death, for not being with us or our kind. But if we could see, on the level of personhood, that on the day of our physical birth, we were a blank slate, upon which our "personhood" was written by sheer circumstance, we might begin to look beyond "personhood" to see what it is that personhood itself arises in. If one could see, for example, that if I took you on the day of your birth and put you in a family in Paris instead of with your actual parents, today you would act and think all things French, or if I put you in a family in Lebanon you might be eating kibbeh and looking forward to your evening prayers just now, or if I put you in a family of cannibals in Borneo, you might be having serious complexes from not being able to catch and eat as many people in a month as your witch-doctor says you should. If you can see this, then you are able to see that "personhood" is not ultimately the real, but that who you are prior to your imposed "personhood" is getting closer to the Truth. The fact that we don't have control over many of the aspects of our lives doesn't imply anything about volition.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 5, 2013 12:37:51 GMT -5
Greetings.. Good.. your more astute than is evident.. the error is in your belief that there is something to "confront".. you've interpreted 'content' for your own intentions.. Be well.. What's clear is that there's dozens of messages sourced from the tzu login that challenge, in one way or another, this concept of impersonality. It's safe to speculate despite your likely denial, that this is something that bothers you. "Whatever you fight you strengthen, whatever you resist persists" -ET If the above quote represents a true principle, what might it mean in light of messengers of opposing views on a discussion forum?
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