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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 22:14:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. Belief, as i understand it, is the attachment to an idea/concept that cannot be demonstrated as irrefutably accurate.. the 'claim' of irrefutable is not valid without evidence to support the claim.. similarly, a challenge to the claim of irrefutable is not valid without evidence to support the challenge.. What we see is a lot of speculation stated as 'true', without the evidence to support the claim, then.. when challenged, the claimant appeals to self-proclaimed authority, stipulating that the challenger doesn't 'get it' because the challenger hasn't had the same experience.. actually, it's likely that the challenger has had the same experience and simply interpreted it differently.. I remain hopeful that there is opportunity to explore the interpretations, rather than arguing about beliefs.. toward that end, i suggest dropping beliefs, even for a short interval, just so we can more closely discuss the experience itself.. then we can examine the interpretation, not as attachments but as how they actually relate to the experience itself.. Be well.. Your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life. Jiddu Krishnamurti I'm guessing he didn't get invited to too many church socials?
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 22:16:42 GMT -5
Your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid and cruel life. Jiddu Krishnamurti Well...I like it and I don't like it. I think that quote' is full of chances to psychoanalyze Mr. Krishnamurti. 'God' may appear useless / nonexistent, but he/she cares and that's more than a lot of us do. And don't tell me I already know it's a belief. The non-existent God cares?
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Post by silver on Jul 4, 2013 22:41:35 GMT -5
Well...I like it and I don't like it. I think that quote' is full of chances to psychoanalyze Mr. Krishnamurti. 'God' may appear useless / nonexistent, but he/she cares and that's more than a lot of us do. And don't tell me I already know it's a belief. The non-existent God cares? I haven't read anything on here that leads me to conclude that anyone here has 'the answer' to whether there's a God or Creator of it all. There are times I believe and times I question. Maybe Caring is the real god - makes the world go 'round.
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Post by silver on Jul 4, 2013 22:43:51 GMT -5
Well...I like it and I don't like it. I think that quote' is full of chances to psychoanalyze Mr. Krishnamurti. 'God' may appear useless / nonexistent, but he/she cares and that's more than a lot of us do. And don't tell me I already know it's a belief. I won't challenge the belief just offer this interpretation of it... I think JK is saying that people grasp after things for their own imagined convenience and comfort. They grasp for riches and rewards desperately clinging to life. .Yeah, he should find a nicer way to say it ~ and not only that, but like Enigma sez, he don't get invited to the church gatherings.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 22:44:22 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Your stipulation is flawed.. there need only be a reasonable expectation that the choice will have the intended result.. that life is uncertain is not cause for denial of choice, choice is the mechanism used to preserve physical, mental, and spiritual harmony within that uncertainty.. <-- trips over Bill's gym bag --> Be well.. I agree that choice does not require certainty of outcome to be validated as free choice. What it does require is volition in what is chosen, and there is none. A robot can be programmed to make a choice, but this activity in no way implies that it could have chosen otherwise. You exhibit a consistency of believing that your personal limitations, the inability to overcome conditioning, applies to everyone, and that is not accurate.. you imply that you understand the process of seeing with clarity, of letting go of attachments, yet.. you remain attached to beliefs like the quoted post.. what can you offer as evidence that there is no volition in what is chosen? Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 0:18:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. I agree that choice does not require certainty of outcome to be validated as free choice. What it does require is volition in what is chosen, and there is none. A robot can be programmed to make a choice, but this activity in no way implies that it could have chosen otherwise. You exhibit a consistency of believing that your personal limitations, the inability to overcome conditioning, applies to everyone, and that is not accurate.. you imply that you understand the process of seeing with clarity, of letting go of attachments, yet.. you remain attached to beliefs like the quoted post.. what can you offer as evidence that there is no volition in what is chosen? Be well.. You'll need to look with a still mind.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 0:36:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. You exhibit a consistency of believing that your personal limitations, the inability to overcome conditioning, applies to everyone, and that is not accurate.. you imply that you understand the process of seeing with clarity, of letting go of attachments, yet.. you remain attached to beliefs like the quoted post.. what can you offer as evidence that there is no volition in what is chosen? Be well.. You'll need to look with a still mind. The stories you tell 'about' what you 'think' you see, reveal that you have no 'real' reference for the words "still mind", and.. by your own claim. you believe "it's all imagined", so your suggestion fails.. and, that i attach no story 'about' what is seen with clarity as being 'truth', i understand the 'still mind' reference for what it is.. a process that could help you let go of those beliefs.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 7:52:29 GMT -5
Greetings.. The ones that can be demonstrated have a future appointment with the sh!t can as well. Well.. rather than make a fixed prediction like that, i'll continue to keep looking and paying attention.. but. so far, it can be demonstrated, with 100% accuracy, that the human body fails and ceases to animate the intentions of the previous occupant.. there is rumor of an exception, but we're back to beliefs at that point.. Be well.. why wait?
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 8:10:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. Your stipulation is flawed.. there need only be a reasonable expectation that the choice will have the intended result.. that life is uncertain is not cause for denial of choice, choice is the mechanism used to preserve physical, mental, and spiritual harmony within that uncertainty.. <-- trips over Bill's gym bag --> Be well.. I agree that choice does not require certainty of outcome to be validated as free choice. What it does require is volition in what is chosen, and there is none. A robot can be programmed to make a choice, but this activity in no way implies that it could have chosen otherwise. In that case you can't equate "Control of" and freedom. This evokes, for example, a common facet of the consensus trance about wealth. I was never very materialistic ... never wanted the finest things -- but I did want lots of money in order to not have to work, to not have to worry about the future. The realization of freedom in this sense is related to "control of", and here we can see how certainty plays in because even if I had been able to get enough money to consider myself free there would have been no certainty of keeping it. In the context of the realization of freedom control simply isn't an issue but on the other hand, how can a person ever consider themselves to be free absent control or, more aptly, the illusion thereof?
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 9:09:35 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Well.. rather than make a fixed prediction like that, i'll continue to keep looking and paying attention.. but. so far, it can be demonstrated, with 100% accuracy, that the human body fails and ceases to animate the intentions of the previous occupant.. there is rumor of an exception, but we're back to beliefs at that point.. Be well.. why wait? You seem to hangin on, you tell me.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 9:13:26 GMT -5
Greetings.. I agree that choice does not require certainty of outcome to be validated as free choice. What it does require is volition in what is chosen, and there is none. A robot can be programmed to make a choice, but this activity in no way implies that it could have chosen otherwise. In that case you can't equate "Control of" and freedom. This evokes, for example, a common facet of the consensus trance about wealth. I was never very materialistic ... never wanted the finest things -- but I did want lots of money in order to not have to work, to not have to worry about the future. The realization of freedom in this sense is related to "control of", and here we can see how certainty plays in because even if I had been able to get enough money to consider myself free there would have been no certainty of keeping it.Still, even without the certainty, the choice is made to gather money.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 9:17:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. In that case you can't equate "Control of" and freedom. This evokes, for example, a common facet of the consensus trance about wealth. I was never very materialistic ... never wanted the finest things -- but I did want lots of money in order to not have to work, to not have to worry about the future. The realization of freedom in this sense is related to "control of", and here we can see how certainty plays in because even if I had been able to get enough money to consider myself free there would have been no certainty of keeping it.Still, even without the certainty, the choice is made to gather money.. Be well.. You've completely missed the point. I did just add something to it, but my guess is that this one help you any.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 9:18:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. You seem to hangin on, you tell me.. Be well.. waiting ended with the realization of freedom nothing to wait for
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 9:34:12 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. You seem to hangin on, you tell me.. Be well.. waiting ended with the realization of freedom nothing to wait for Agreed.. If one is truly 'present', there is no 'death' until it happens.. Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 9:36:34 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Still, even without the certainty, the choice is made to gather money.. Be well.. You've completely missed the point. I did just add something to it, but my guess is that this one help you any. I lost interest when it became another adventure in minding.. there's actually no 'point' to miss.. Be well..
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