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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 20:43:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. No, that is what you think... Great! another 'i'm rubber, you're glue' kind of distorted perspective.. it's not easy to just have a simple discussion around here.. Be well.. Well you can't really start a discussion with someone by telling them what they think...
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Post by zendancer on Jul 4, 2013 22:07:10 GMT -5
Greetings.. I'll jump in here and add a few comments even though E. has probably explained things as well as language permits. If one seriously pursues the truth, there are a wide range of possible realizations that may occur. Some of them are minor and some of them are major. They all happen spontaneously (have no duration) and include: 1. The realization that time, space, and thingness are mental constructs. 2. The realization that reality is a unified field of being. 3. The realization that reality is alive, intelligent, and infinite. 4. The realization that there is no limit to what reality can do. 5. The realization that even if the universe disappeared, that which is aware would remain--that awareness is prior to any and all manifestation. 6. The realization that the concept of volition is a concept rather than something real. 7. The realization that thoughts separate the thinker from the truth. 8. The realization that love is a fundamental quality, force, and manifestation of reality. 9. The realization/acceptance of how the body must manifest. 10. The realization that goodness is more important than correctness. 11. The realization of answers to thousands of existential questions, conundrums, and seeming paradoxes. 12. The realization of how mind functions to create and maintain a state of entrancement. 13. The realization of the importance of freedom from the mind. 14. The realization of the difference between how little children perceive and interact with the world versus how adults perceive and interact with products of imagination. 15. The realization that selfhood is an illusion created by thought. The first four of these realizations and the last one are probably the most important ones because they reveal (1) that the universe is not what it is usually imagined to be, and (2) self reflection, self-referentiality, and self imagining has unnoticed tendrils of thought that permeate the body/mind and only disappear when the illusion of selfhood is seen through. Selfhood is apparently a highly complex thought structure that affects every aspect of life in ways that are not recognized until the structure collapses. After the collapse, there is a greater freedom of action because the mind does not reflexively check back on the structure in the way that it did previously and unconsciously. Bernadette Roberts and other writers have attempted to describe this phenomena. In short, life has a kind of free flow to it when the mind isn't habitually relating the happeningness of reality to an imaginary entity. After the illusion of selfhood is seen through, the process of Self-discovery and Self-realization does not stop because Self/Reality/God/the Truth is infinite, and there is no limit to what It may choose to learn about Itself. Hi ZD: Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations? Be well.. Who/what is it that asks this question?
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 22:50:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Hi ZD: Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations? Be well.. Who/what is it that asks this question? "I" am asking the question.. who/what is it that chooses to answer a question with a question? This is familiar territory for me, the 'usual fare' of the Zen model, can you escape and authentically answer the original question i posed, " Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations?" Be well..
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2013 0:05:02 GMT -5
Hi enigma, "...without qualifying that statement by referring to the need to realize," amit He wasn't writing a technical paper. He's pointing, you're analyzing. Hi enigma, If you believe he meant to qualify the statement by saying there is a need to realize, but simply failed to say it for some reason, then yes you could conclude that. amit
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2013 0:11:50 GMT -5
Hi enigma, Cant find that. Can you quote it including the context? amit Realization is how mind is informed about the experience. In the recognition of experiencing the loss of a sense of separation it is realized that there never was a separate person to begin with. That realization then cascades as the mind reinterprets (or drops its interpretation of) everything it thought about the nature of existence and personal identity. If the mind is not informed with that initial realization, when the mind boots back up it picks up right where it left off and dismisses the experience as "I got lost in daydreaming, time to get focussed on the task at hand". Realizations is the force that pushes on the first domino (or house of cards), causing it to topple. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2853/advaita-splits?page=2&scrollTo=128476#ixzz2Y5hhg0wdHi enigma, Understood thanks. Yes the mind may well react in that way. On the other hand if the resonance is strong enough, it may intensely focus on whatever was resonated with to understand the implications. amit
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 0:50:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. I'll jump in here and add a few comments even though E. has probably explained things as well as language permits. If one seriously pursues the truth, there are a wide range of possible realizations that may occur. Some of them are minor and some of them are major. They all happen spontaneously (have no duration) and include: 1. The realization that time, space, and thingness are mental constructs. 2. The realization that reality is a unified field of being. 3. The realization that reality is alive, intelligent, and infinite. 4. The realization that there is no limit to what reality can do. 5. The realization that even if the universe disappeared, that which is aware would remain--that awareness is prior to any and all manifestation. 6. The realization that the concept of volition is a concept rather than something real. 7. The realization that thoughts separate the thinker from the truth. 8. The realization that love is a fundamental quality, force, and manifestation of reality. 9. The realization/acceptance of how the body must manifest. 10. The realization that goodness is more important than correctness. 11. The realization of answers to thousands of existential questions, conundrums, and seeming paradoxes. 12. The realization of how mind functions to create and maintain a state of entrancement. 13. The realization of the importance of freedom from the mind. 14. The realization of the difference between how little children perceive and interact with the world versus how adults perceive and interact with products of imagination. 15. The realization that selfhood is an illusion created by thought. The first four of these realizations and the last one are probably the most important ones because they reveal (1) that the universe is not what it is usually imagined to be, and (2) self reflection, self-referentiality, and self imagining has unnoticed tendrils of thought that permeate the body/mind and only disappear when the illusion of selfhood is seen through. Selfhood is apparently a highly complex thought structure that affects every aspect of life in ways that are not recognized until the structure collapses. After the collapse, there is a greater freedom of action because the mind does not reflexively check back on the structure in the way that it did previously and unconsciously. Bernadette Roberts and other writers have attempted to describe this phenomena. In short, life has a kind of free flow to it when the mind isn't habitually relating the happeningness of reality to an imaginary entity. After the illusion of selfhood is seen through, the process of Self-discovery and Self-realization does not stop because Self/Reality/God/the Truth is infinite, and there is no limit to what It may choose to learn about Itself. Hi ZD: Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations? Be well.. The question is misconceived.
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Post by enigma on Jul 5, 2013 0:56:06 GMT -5
Realization is how mind is informed about the experience. In the recognition of experiencing the loss of a sense of separation it is realized that there never was a separate person to begin with. That realization then cascades as the mind reinterprets (or drops its interpretation of) everything it thought about the nature of existence and personal identity. If the mind is not informed with that initial realization, when the mind boots back up it picks up right where it left off and dismisses the experience as "I got lost in daydreaming, time to get focussed on the task at hand". Realizations is the force that pushes on the first domino (or house of cards), causing it to topple. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2853/advaita-splits?page=2&scrollTo=128476#ixzz2Y5hhg0wdHi enigma, Understood thanks. Yes the mind may well react in that way. On the other hand if the resonance is strong enough, it may intensely focus on whatever was resonated with to understand the implications. amit Working out the concepts on an intellectual level can't work.
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2013 1:03:20 GMT -5
Hi enigma, Understood. Thanks. Lets still use pronouns for ease of communication. Has it occurred for you. If so how would you describe "the realization that the person is an illusion" Is it a feeling/experience (whose?) or neither? What would you say about it? amit I'll jump in here and add a few comments even though E. has probably explained things as well as language permits. If one seriously pursues the truth, there are a wide range of possible realizations that may occur. Some of them are minor and some of them are major. They all happen spontaneously (have no duration) and include: 1. The realization that time, space, and thingness are mental constructs. 2. The realization that reality is a unified field of being. 3. The realization that reality is alive, intelligent, and infinite. 4. The realization that there is no limit to what reality can do. 5. The realization that even if the universe disappeared, that which is aware would remain--that awareness is prior to any and all manifestation. 6. The realization that the concept of volition is a concept rather than something real. 7. The realization that thoughts separate the thinker from the truth. 8. The realization that love is a fundamental quality, force, and manifestation of reality. 9. The realization/acceptance of how the body must manifest. 10. The realization that goodness is more important than correctness. 11. The realization of answers to thousands of existential questions, conundrums, and seeming paradoxes. 12. The realization of how mind functions to create and maintain a state of entrancement. 13. The realization of the importance of freedom from the mind. 14. The realization of the difference between how little children perceive and interact with the world versus how adults perceive and interact with products of imagination. 15. The realization that selfhood is an illusion created by thought. The first four of these realizations and the last one are probably the most important ones because they reveal (1) that the universe is not what it is usually imagined to be, and (2) self reflection, self-referentiality, and self imagining has unnoticed tendrils of thought that permeate the body/mind and only disappear when the illusion of selfhood is seen through. Selfhood is apparently a highly complex thought structure that affects every aspect of life in ways that are not recognized until the structure collapses. After the collapse, there is a greater freedom of action because the mind does not reflexively check back on the structure in the way that it did previously and unconsciously. Bernadette Roberts and other writers have attempted to describe this phenomena. In short, life has a kind of free flow to it when the mind isn't habitually relating the happeningness of reality to an imaginary entity. After the illusion of selfhood is seen through, the process of Self-discovery and Self-realization does not stop because Self/Reality/God/the Truth is infinite, and there is no limit to what It may choose to learn about Itself. Hi ZD, Understood. Thanks. You are saying that what you regard as the "Truth" is contained in those 15 examples of realization. Concerning truth I would refer to something by Soren Kierkegaard:- "He told a story about a highwayman who held up a coach, "Your purse" he cried and the passenger handed it over. He rode off and discarded his wig, coat, and mask in a ditch and headed for the next town, as did the passenger. A beggar came along, put on the coat and wig and when arriving in the town was identified by the passenger as the robber, and put on trial where the passenger took an oath that this was indeed the robber. The highwayman was also in court and was granted permission to speak. He put on the coat and wig and said to the passenger "Your purse". The passenger cried out that this was the robber but of course he had already sworn that it was the beggar. So it is with all who believe they have discovered a truth. They venture life and limb, would hang themselves and others, all on account of the wig" amit amit
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Post by amit on Jul 5, 2013 1:07:19 GMT -5
Hi enigma, Understood thanks. Yes the mind may well react in that way. On the other hand if the resonance is strong enough, it may intensely focus on whatever was resonated with to understand the implications. amit Working out the concepts on an intellectual level can't work. Hi enigma, If it is believed that there in no value in reflecting on a concept in exchange with another to reach a sense of understanding then yes. amit
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Post by zendancer on Jul 5, 2013 9:30:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Who/what is it that asks this question? "I" am asking the question.. who/what is it that chooses to answer a question with a question? This is familiar territory for me, the 'usual fare' of the Zen model, can you escape and authentically answer the original question i posed, " Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations?" Be well.. "I" answered the question with a certain degree of humor even though the answer may be disliked, misunderstood, rejected, etc. It's a kind of playfulness as illustrated in this exhange: Questioner: Who are you? Sage: What was the question? Questioner: I asked, "Who are you?" Sage: Thank you. In this example the sage used the questioner to answer his own question. Bodhidharma was asked the same question by Emperor Wu, and he responded, in essence, "It is not knowable." His answer was okay, but a little too serious for my taste. Someone asked Rinzai the same question, and he responded by jumping up, grabbing the questioner by his collar, and yelling, "Speak, speak!" This answer is a lot funnier and far more likely to stop the questioner's mind in its tracks. A more direct answer to the question is: *stands up, turns around three times, and sits back down* When Reality/"what is" sees/learns/knows that it is not what it thought it was--a person--what remains? Fingers typing on a keyboard, TV yakking in the background, universal sound ringing in the ears, rain falling outside the window, refrigerator motor humming in an adjacent room, words and thoughts appearing in emptiness, etc. All is seen and heard without imagining that there is a see-er or hear-er separate from the seen and heard. In the absence of thoughts or in the midst of thoughts, with a still mind or a busy mind, "what is" remains clear and undisguised. Be well.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 9:45:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. "I" am asking the question.. who/what is it that chooses to answer a question with a question? This is familiar territory for me, the 'usual fare' of the Zen model, can you escape and authentically answer the original question i posed, " Who/what is it that you suggest would benefit from the realizations?" Be well.. "I" answered the question with a certain degree of humor even though the answer may be disliked, misunderstood, rejected, etc. It's a kind of playfulness as illustrated in this exhange: Questioner: Who are you? Sage: What was the question? Questioner: I asked, "Who are you?" Sage: Thank you. In this example the sage used the questioner to answer his own question. Bodhidharma was asked the same question by Emperor Wu, and he responded, in essence, "It is not knowable." His answer was okay, but a little too serious for my taste. Someone asked Rinzai the same question, and he responded by jumping up, grabbing the questioner by his collar, and yelling, "Speak, speak!" This answer is a lot funnier and far more likely to stop the questioner's mind in its tracks. A more direct answer to the question is: *stands up, turns around three times, and sits back down* When Reality/"what is" sees/learns/knows that it is not what it thought it was--a person--what remains? Fingers typing on a keyboard, TV yakking in the background, universal sound ringing in the ears, rain falling outside the window, refrigerator motor humming in an adjacent room, words and thoughts appearing in emptiness, etc. All is seen and heard without imagining that there is a see-er or hear-er separate from the seen and heard. In the absence of thoughts or in the midst of thoughts, with a still mind or a busy mind, "what is" remains clear and undisguised. Be well. I am familiar with Bodhidharma and Rinzai, and the process of Zen.. but, you hold understanding in a private mindscape unique to 'you', that is my interest.. not the stale words of others.. Who is it that sees "clear and undisguised" on one hand, and who is it that promotes abuse and oppression on the other hand? Be well..
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Post by zendancer on Jul 5, 2013 11:38:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. "I" answered the question with a certain degree of humor even though the answer may be disliked, misunderstood, rejected, etc. It's a kind of playfulness as illustrated in this exhange: Questioner: Who are you? Sage: What was the question? Questioner: I asked, "Who are you?" Sage: Thank you. In this example the sage used the questioner to answer his own question. Bodhidharma was asked the same question by Emperor Wu, and he responded, in essence, "It is not knowable." His answer was okay, but a little too serious for my taste. Someone asked Rinzai the same question, and he responded by jumping up, grabbing the questioner by his collar, and yelling, "Speak, speak!" This answer is a lot funnier and far more likely to stop the questioner's mind in its tracks. A more direct answer to the question is: *stands up, turns around three times, and sits back down* When Reality/"what is" sees/learns/knows that it is not what it thought it was--a person--what remains? Fingers typing on a keyboard, TV yakking in the background, universal sound ringing in the ears, rain falling outside the window, refrigerator motor humming in an adjacent room, words and thoughts appearing in emptiness, etc. All is seen and heard without imagining that there is a see-er or hear-er separate from the seen and heard. In the absence of thoughts or in the midst of thoughts, with a still mind or a busy mind, "what is" remains clear and undisguised. Be well. I am familiar with Bodhidharma and Rinzai, and the process of Zen.. but, you hold understanding in a private mindscape unique to 'you', that is my interest.. not the stale words of others.. Who is it that sees "clear and undisguised" on one hand, and who is it that promotes abuse and oppression on the other hand? Be well.. It is the same one who does everything. It is the one who wrote the post using the name "Tzujanli" and is now responding to the post using the name "zendancer." It is not a person. If these words don't resonate, then throw them away.
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 11:55:27 GMT -5
Greetings.. "I" answered the question with a certain degree of humor even though the answer may be disliked, misunderstood, rejected, etc. It's a kind of playfulness as illustrated in this exhange: Questioner: Who are you? Sage: What was the question? Questioner: I asked, "Who are you?" Sage: Thank you. In this example the sage used the questioner to answer his own question. Bodhidharma was asked the same question by Emperor Wu, and he responded, in essence, "It is not knowable." His answer was okay, but a little too serious for my taste. Someone asked Rinzai the same question, and he responded by jumping up, grabbing the questioner by his collar, and yelling, "Speak, speak!" This answer is a lot funnier and far more likely to stop the questioner's mind in its tracks. A more direct answer to the question is: *stands up, turns around three times, and sits back down* When Reality/"what is" sees/learns/knows that it is not what it thought it was--a person--what remains? Fingers typing on a keyboard, TV yakking in the background, universal sound ringing in the ears, rain falling outside the window, refrigerator motor humming in an adjacent room, words and thoughts appearing in emptiness, etc. All is seen and heard without imagining that there is a see-er or hear-er separate from the seen and heard. In the absence of thoughts or in the midst of thoughts, with a still mind or a busy mind, "what is" remains clear and undisguised. Be well. I am familiar with Bodhidharma and Rinzai, and the process of Zen.. but, you hold understanding in a private mindscape unique to 'you', that is my interest.. not the stale words of others.. Who is it that sees "clear and undisguised" on one hand, and who is it that promotes abuse and oppression on the other hand? Be well.. What is represented again and again by the words on tzu's page is that it is his thinking mind that is familiar with the concepts of Bodhidharma and Rinzai ... and sending you back to the pillows will do you no good. Unclench.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 5, 2013 12:02:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. I am familiar with Bodhidharma and Rinzai, and the process of Zen.. but, you hold understanding in a private mindscape unique to 'you', that is my interest.. not the stale words of others.. Who is it that sees "clear and undisguised" on one hand, and who is it that promotes abuse and oppression on the other hand? Be well.. What is represented again and again by the words on tzu's page is that it is his thinking mind that is familiar with the concepts of Bodhidharma and Rinzai ... and sending you back to the pillows will do you no good. Unclench. What is represented again and again by the words on laughter's page is the attachment to his disapproval of Tzu's understandings.. Detach.... Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2013 12:05:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. What is represented again and again by the words on tzu's page is that it is his thinking mind that is familiar with the concepts of Bodhidharma and Rinzai ... and sending you back to the pillows will do you no good. Unclench. What is represented again and again by the words on laughter's page is the attachment to his disapproval of Tzu's understandings.. Detach.... Be well.. understanding? ha! ... it is only the mind that understands. So much for "still mind clarity" ...
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