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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 23:04:54 GMT -5
Mind cannot kill itself, no matter how much it tries or thinks it can... It just had an allergic reaction to the order you were expressing. Let R be the set of realizations. Let A be a particular realization in R. You said For all realizations B in R, A > B, including A > A. Did not compute, so mind wobbled its way to the toilet to but didn't quite make it there. Sorry about your shoes, Andrew! I would say that 'mind', in a narrow sense of the word, can collapse in on itself. That's what happens in the superseding realization....it supersedes all realizations, including itself. Its the end of realizations as we knew them. You seem to have recovered quite nicely.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 23:06:27 GMT -5
You mean into a little greasy spot? The mind collapses, but it does not collapse itself. I think the term dissolve is better. It's something that happens to the mind, but not directed by the mind. No I don't mean into a little greasy spot. That's still collapsing into something. Andrew, do you think I'm actually referring to spot of grease?
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 23:42:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. No I don't mean into a little greasy spot. That's still collapsing into something. Andrew, do you think I'm actually referring to spot of grease? Speak plainly, openly, clearly, and you won't have to ask those unnecessary questions.. if you don't mean "spot of grease", why do you use the phrase? you say you're interested in clarity, but you speak in riddles and innuendos and mockery and provocations, do you see the inconsistency and contradiction? or, as your MO suggests, will you advance more of the same to cover your inconsistencies.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 23:43:15 GMT -5
It's your ultimate realization? Are you postulating or are you willing to commit and be certain in an absolute sense? Haha okay, its 'the ultimate realization'. And you gotta be 'an ultimate warrior' to have it hehe (j/k) Realizations about stuff still happen afterwards, but they are just more waves on the ocean...they lose their...'profundity'. It has been realized that realizations are as empty as anything else. In this sense, what I am suggesting is that abiding peace is prior to realizations. Theoretically, its true that realizations are not necessary in order for abiding peace to be the case, but practically speaking, I couldn't agree with that. I think I agree with that, which makes me wonder what in blazes you've been talking about. Realizations reveal illusions for what they are. They aren't ideas and don't lead to new ideas or add any information, and so i call them empty.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 23:57:06 GMT -5
.. in other words, to 'get it', you have to let it go.. it's as simple as that. can you elaborate further on "let it go"? my understanding is that you have to "see through it", which is more like a divine intervention, than anything one can "do". and once the falsity of whatever was seen through is recognized, it then is 'let go' or 'falls away' naturally, and without any effort. Yup. Letting go isn't a doing. Surrender isn't a doing.
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 0:43:31 GMT -5
Greetings.. What wind, rain, elements, etc? Without the experience present, those are just thoughts in the mind, which for the most part are not thought about. Despite your advise to look with a still mind, your mind is filled with the model of the world that you've accumulated through experience. Maybe its time to start looking with an EMPTY mind... Ahh.. so, when the questions reveal something you don't want to admit/address, you choose to try to turn it back? let the panic go, actually study the question i posed to you.. that panic was you 'seeing clearly' for an instant.. it's really cool if you can let go of the panic.. Be well.. No, actually, you asked an absurd question and got more of an answer than you deserved.
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Post by enigma on Jul 4, 2013 1:03:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. Andrew, do you think I'm actually referring to spot of grease? Speak plainly, openly, clearly, and you won't have to ask those unnecessary questions.. if you don't mean "spot of grease", why do you use the phrase? you say you're interested in clarity, but you speak in riddles and innuendos and mockery and provocations, do you see the inconsistency and contradiction? or, as your MO suggests, will you advance more of the same to cover your inconsistencies.. Be well.. The fact that I have to ask such questions reveals the rampant insanity here, as does your response.
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Post by andrew on Jul 4, 2013 2:44:20 GMT -5
No I don't mean into a little greasy spot. That's still collapsing into something. Andrew, do you think I'm actually referring to spot of grease? You mean.....you're not suggesting to get a butterfly net, catch every idea, transfer the net containing the ideas to the stove and find that single stubborn greasy spot that just won't wash away, and then....quickly, before any ideas escape, transfer all those ideas into that greasy spot? Hehehe. You really DO think I'm a bit crazy. Having said that, might be good if you did explain what you mean by 'greasy spot'. Fair warning: Use of the word 'ultimate' in your explanation will mean that I come after you with a great big butterfly net.
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Post by andrew on Jul 4, 2013 2:52:25 GMT -5
Haha okay, its 'the ultimate realization'. And you gotta be 'an ultimate warrior' to have it hehe (j/k) Realizations about stuff still happen afterwards, but they are just more waves on the ocean...they lose their...'profundity'. It has been realized that realizations are as empty as anything else. In this sense, what I am suggesting is that abiding peace is prior to realizations. Theoretically, its true that realizations are not necessary in order for abiding peace to be the case, but practically speaking, I couldn't agree with that. I think I agree with that, which makes me wonder what in blazes you've been talking about. Realizations reveal illusions for what they are. They aren't ideas and don't lead to new ideas or add any information, and so i call them empty. My issue here is with the word 'illusion', because although its true that the primary realizations do involve 'seeing through illusions', the ultimate realization collapses the boundary between illusion and not-illusion. Hence although in the primary realizations its not wrong to say that 'realizations are timeless', in the ultimate realization, realizations themselves are seen to be ideas, comings and goings. In this sense, saying that 'realizations are timeless and prior to ideas' is just a pointer. Or to put another way. In the ultimate realization, realizations themselves are 'put out front' (though the gap between front and back is also collapsed).
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Post by topology on Jul 4, 2013 6:41:11 GMT -5
Greetings.. Drawing on memory as the experience is not present with me. In closing eyes, attention shifts from the visual input to feeling the vibrations occurring and allowing them to lull me (the body-mind) to sleep. The thoughts about being on an airplane traveling from one destination to another hang around, but drift away as sleep and dreaming take over. Another world is visited in dreaming. Groggily waking from a sleep cycle, vibration is felt and an eyelid is cracked to see the back of a seat ahead of me, consistent with the form factor of airplane seats. The thoughts come back to mind about where I'm going and where I've come from. Still another 30 minutes to the destination, back to less content in the conscious experience. This is quite the turn around in message for you, Tzu. First you've been telling me to drop my beliefs and surrounding story, now you're telling me I'm deluding myself if I don't hang on to the beliefs and story about what is happening in the world apart from my immediate experience. Which is it? That there is an objective world beyond the veil of perception is an assumption, a belief. One does not have to believe it. One can simply move from one experience to the next, letting the mind do what it does which is store memories about past experiences, build stories about what it thinks is "supposed to" happen. etc. None of that has to be believed. It is what is actually happening.. it is not what you 'think' is happening.. that you asked that question suggests that you aren't aware of the difference.. when you closed your eyes, you didn't fall from the sky, you engaged your mind and told yourself a story and the airplane didn't 'fall away'.. there's no belief involved, you didn't fall from the sky and the airplane didn't vanish.. your belief is in the imaginary explanations you keep trying make for what you want to believe.. let those go.. move from the airplane to the ground to the ride to wherever you are going, but.. let go of trying to explain how you have no control, those explanations are you trying to control how others perceive you and your wants.. Be well.. Greetings, Drop your beliefs (imaginings) about what happened for me and look at what just happened for you. None of that was in your actual experience present with you. You engaged your knowledge (beliefs) about the world. Just drop them as they prevent you from perceiving what is actually happening in your experience. Be Well
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Post by laughter on Jul 4, 2013 6:46:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. It is what is actually happening.. it is not what you 'think' is happening.. that you asked that question suggests that you aren't aware of the difference.. when you closed your eyes, you didn't fall from the sky, you engaged your mind and told yourself a story and the airplane didn't 'fall away'.. there's no belief involved, you didn't fall from the sky and the airplane didn't vanish.. your belief is in the imaginary explanations you keep trying make for what you want to believe.. let those go.. move from the airplane to the ground to the ride to wherever you are going, but.. let go of trying to explain how you have no control, those explanations are you trying to control how others perceive you and your wants.. Be well.. Greetings, Drop your beliefs (imaginings) about what happened for me and look at what just happened for you. None of that was in your actual experience present with you. You engaged your knowledge (beliefs) about the world. Just drop them as they prevent you from perceiving what is actually happening in your experience. Be Well Seems to be a matter of letting go ... the grips been so tight for such a duration that the noticing of it slipped away long long ago ...
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Post by topology on Jul 4, 2013 7:16:28 GMT -5
Haha okay, its 'the ultimate realization'. And you gotta be 'an ultimate warrior' to have it hehe (j/k) Realizations about stuff still happen afterwards, but they are just more waves on the ocean...they lose their...'profundity'. It has been realized that realizations are as empty as anything else. In this sense, what I am suggesting is that abiding peace is prior to realizations. Theoretically, its true that realizations are not necessary in order for abiding peace to be the case, but practically speaking, I couldn't agree with that. I think I agree with that, which makes me wonder what in blazes you've been talking about. Realizations reveal illusions for what they are. They aren't ideas and don't lead to new ideas or add any information, and so i call them empty. *hands Enigma his Andrew decoder ring* It's a substitution cypher. I don't think he understands your use of realization as a verb and thinks you are using it as a noun. "A run through the forrest" is an event. Events are hybrid creatures. They are talked about as if they are nouns, but they are based on verbs and represent change in state. Of realization were a true noun, not an event, it would be a conclusion. Was it Farmer that said recently that he used to experience the silent gap between thoughts until silence became pervasive and thoughts appeared on the backdrop of silence. That shift between foreground and background is essentially for getting perspective on the whole shebang. Andrew anchors his whole understanding on the idea that it is all a play of ideas. We have no opportunity to hear if there is any silence happening in and around those ideas. Until the ideas are swallowed by the silence, it's going to continue to be fleas chasing their own tails.
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Post by andrew on Jul 4, 2013 7:44:25 GMT -5
I think I agree with that, which makes me wonder what in blazes you've been talking about. Realizations reveal illusions for what they are. They aren't ideas and don't lead to new ideas or add any information, and so i call them empty. *hands Enigma his Andrew decoder ring* It's a substitution cypher. I don't think he understands your use of realization as a verb and thinks you are using it as a noun. "A run through the forrest" is an event. Events are hybrid creatures. They are talked about as if they are nouns, but they are based on verbs and represent change in state. Of realization were a true noun, not an event, it would be a conclusion. Was it Farmer that said recently that he used to experience the silent gap between thoughts until silence became pervasive and thoughts appeared on the backdrop of silence. That shift between foreground and background is essentially for getting perspective on the whole shebang. Andrew anchors his whole understanding on the idea that it is all a play of ideas. We have no opportunity to hear if there is any silence happening in and around those ideas. Until the ideas are swallowed by the silence, it's going to continue to be fleas chasing their own tails. I would say I am very clear what E is saying about realizations, and he uses the idea of realizations to point away from rational thought/logic, and I can see a level of value in that. The problem is that when looked at closely, it makes no sense to say that realizations are prior to mind altogether. There are times when he implies it is a noun and times when he implies it as a verb but I do the same thing there. The idea of there being 'silence' in around the ideas...is another idea hehe. As a pointer to something other than ideas, I understand what you are referring to, but until it has been realized that realizations themselves are part of the play of ideas, this 'silence' that you speak of is more of a sentiment than anything else. It's a false silence, a silence that enables us to deal with mind. Its not realization of silence in which thought, mind, ideas and noise are not a distraction or a problem.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 4, 2013 8:49:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Speak plainly, openly, clearly, and you won't have to ask those unnecessary questions.. if you don't mean "spot of grease", why do you use the phrase? you say you're interested in clarity, but you speak in riddles and innuendos and mockery and provocations, do you see the inconsistency and contradiction? or, as your MO suggests, will you advance more of the same to cover your inconsistencies.. Be well.. The fact that I have to ask such questions reveals the rampant insanity here, as does your response. The fact that you ask such questions is that you are detached from reality, as you said, you believe "it's all imagined".. that's the actuality.. Be well..
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Post by Reefs on Jul 4, 2013 9:35:52 GMT -5
I would just say that mind collapses in on itself, or dissolves in on itself And then what? Play of ideas is over?
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