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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 16:26:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. So, when you close your eyes, the protection that the room offers you from the wind, rain, elements, etc.. that ceases to be a part of your experience? Be well.. What wind, rain, elements, etc? Without the experience present, those are just thoughts in the mind, which for the most part are not thought about. Despite your advise to look with a still mind, your mind is filled with the model of the world that you've accumulated through experience. Maybe its time to start looking with an EMPTY mind... Ahh.. so, when the questions reveal something you don't want to admit/address, you choose to try to turn it back? let the panic go, actually study the question i posed to you.. that panic was you 'seeing clearly' for an instant.. it's really cool if you can let go of the panic.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 16:29:04 GMT -5
If I were to sit with a still mind with my eyes closed long enough, the "knowledge" (thought ((mental content))) of where I was would eventually fall away and I would not know where I was because there are no visual markers to bring the thought back to mind. This has actually happened to me in deep mediation, losing the thought about where I was in the world. Hmmmm...In deep meditation on this end, I'm not aware of the moment the mantra disappears. I am aware when the mantra returns. The only reference point I have that something happened (mantra disappearing), is when the meditation is coming to an end. Before I open my eyes there might be a thought like, "well, that meditation felt like maybe a 15-20 minute meditation." Upon looking at a clock, or watch after opening my eyes- 40 minutes or longer will have gone by. It's like time somehow stood still. Is it that way for you, too?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 17:16:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. Is that like a realization that Enigma was talking about? IOW It's not an idea, thing, or an experience?... It's just clarity.. unobstructed sensing.. Be well.. Ahh, it's not realization, it's the experience of sensing... So, what is it then that is obstructing this experience of unobstructed sensing?
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 17:20:06 GMT -5
Greetings.. If I were to sit with a still mind with my eyes closed long enough, the "knowledge" (thought ((mental content))) of where I was would eventually fall away and I would not know where I was because there are no visual markers to bring the thought back to mind. This has actually happened to me in deep mediation, losing the thought about where I was in the world. Hmmmm...In deep meditation on this end, I'm not aware of the moment the mantra disappears. I am aware when the mantra returns. The only reference point I have that something happened (mantra disappearing), is when the meditation is coming to an end. Before I open my eyes there might be a thought like, "well, that meditation felt like maybe a 15-20 minute meditation." Upon looking at a clock, or watch after opening my eyes- 40 minutes or longer will have gone by. It's like time somehow stood still. Is it that way for you, too? Here's my description: There's a point where the 'stillness' approaches absolute, that awareness begins expanding exponentially with a physically tangible feeling of acceleration and a physically tangible vibration like a low resonant bass hum, and.. as stillness comes to rest, there's a there's a shift to a 'still but loud silence'.. where all that is and ever was is present in awareness, in the instant of the 'presence', resonance with the experiencer's unique energetic signature filters that Wholeness into more familiar and understandable imagery/experience.. after enough experience in this 'presence', there emerges the ability to intend focused awareness within the totality of presence, and.. as experience conditions the experiencer's responses, there is the tolerance for remaining in total unstructured presence, but.. this is a difficult yet exhilarating experience, and over repeated journeys into this wholeness awareness, i am beginning to map certain regions for return explorations.. anyway, that's enough fuel for those that like to start fires, but.. it's also my attempt to describe how i experience 'meditation'.. oh, yeah, time.. well, the same experience can happen in intervals of 10-20 clock seconds, or 3-4 clock hours.. i find standing meditation (Wuji or Zhan Zhuang), 20-40 minutes up to an hour, equally beneficial to seated versions.. similarly, the same 'meditation' just happens as conditions allow, regardless of physical position or activity, the presence is total, local and non-local.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Jul 3, 2013 17:23:34 GMT -5
To add Top. My position is one of faith, not realization. But its not a faith in something, its not even a faith in God, though I do like the word 'God'. I can't even say its a faith in 'possibility' or 'the unknown' or 'nothing' because I'm not actively placing faith. The best I can say is that its a purely empty faith. A faith that has no grounds. A faith in faith itself. My mind has returned to it's attempts at Sepukku. Let me know when you've lost your faithfulness to this faithless faith in faith.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 17:25:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. It's just clarity.. unobstructed sensing.. Be well.. Ahh, it's not realization, it's the experience of sensing... So, what is it then that is obstructing this experience of unobstructed sensing? Ahh.. You set limitation on 'sensing', i do not, insight, intuition, realization, all 'sensing'.. realization is not mystical or transcendental, it is becoming aware of what was previously not within the experiencer's awareness.. transcendental happens when the relationships are actually understood and applied.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 17:33:13 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hmmmm...In deep meditation on this end, I'm not aware of the moment the mantra disappears. I am aware when the mantra returns. The only reference point I have that something happened (mantra disappearing), is when the meditation is coming to an end. Before I open my eyes there might be a thought like, "well, that meditation felt like maybe a 15-20 minute meditation." Upon looking at a clock, or watch after opening my eyes- 40 minutes or longer will have gone by. It's like time somehow stood still. Is it that way for you, too? Here's my description: There's a point where the 'stillness' approaches absolute, that awareness begins expanding exponentially with a physically tangible feeling of acceleration and a physically tangible vibration like a low resonant bass hum, and.. as stillness comes to rest, there's a there's a shift to a 'still but loud silence'.. where all that is and ever was is present in awareness, in the instant of the 'presence', resonance with the experiencer's unique energetic signature filters that Wholeness into more familiar and understandable imagery/experience.. after enough experience in this 'presence', there emerges the ability to intend focused awareness within the totality of presence, and.. as experience conditions the experiencer's responses, there is the tolerance for remaining in total unstructured presence, but.. this is a difficult yet exhilarating experience, and over repeated journeys into this wholeness awareness, i am beginning to map certain regions for return explorations.. anyway, that's enough fuel for those that like to start fires, but.. it's also my attempt to describe how i experience 'meditation'.. oh, yeah, time.. well, the same experience can happen in intervals of 10-20 clock seconds, or 3-4 clock hours.. i find standing meditation (Wuji or Zhan Zhuang), 20-40 minutes up to an hour, equally beneficial to seated versions.. similarly, the same 'meditation' just happens as conditions allow, regardless of physical position or activity, the presence is total, local and non-local.. Be well.. I knew you would understand what I'm trying to describe. Thank you for your response. You know, when I have the experience of the mantra returning, it is usually accompanied by a jolt, and a sense that I am catching my breath. I've always wondered if the breathing stops in deep meditation. Is that your experience? This would make a great thread. The Wuji and Zhan Zuang sound interesting, too. I'm starting to understand why I sense your presence here.
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Post by topology on Jul 3, 2013 17:38:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. What wind, rain, elements, etc? Without the experience present, those are just thoughts in the mind, which for the most part are not thought about. Despite your advise to look with a still mind, your mind is filled with the model of the world that you've accumulated through experience. Maybe its time to start looking with an EMPTY mind... Ahh.. so, when the questions reveal something you don't want to admit/address, you choose to try to turn it back? let the panic go, actually study the question i posed to you.. that panic was you 'seeing clearly' for an instant.. it's really cool if you can let go of the panic.. Be well.. You've got quite the imagination about my emotional state. The only admission I have is about what is absent. No thoughts about rain or weather or elements occurred to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 17:39:50 GMT -5
Greetings.. Ahh, it's not realization, it's the experience of sensing... So, what is it then that is obstructing this experience of unobstructed sensing? Ahh.. You set limitation on 'sensing', i do not, insight, intuition, realization, all 'sensing'.. realization is not mystical or transcendental, it is becoming aware of what was previously not within the experiencer's awareness.. transcendental happens when the relationships are actually understood and applied.. Be well.. Whoa, slow down dude you've got a fruit cake of not setting limitations, what realizations aren't, what they are and then some nuts on when transcendental happens... Drop the 'it's an experience' then, all's I'm asking is what is obstructing the clarity of this all 'sensing' sensor?...
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 17:50:45 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Here's my description: There's a point where the 'stillness' approaches absolute, that awareness begins expanding exponentially with a physically tangible feeling of acceleration and a physically tangible vibration like a low resonant bass hum, and.. as stillness comes to rest, there's a there's a shift to a 'still but loud silence'.. where all that is and ever was is present in awareness, in the instant of the 'presence', resonance with the experiencer's unique energetic signature filters that Wholeness into more familiar and understandable imagery/experience.. after enough experience in this 'presence', there emerges the ability to intend focused awareness within the totality of presence, and.. as experience conditions the experiencer's responses, there is the tolerance for remaining in total unstructured presence, but.. this is a difficult yet exhilarating experience, and over repeated journeys into this wholeness awareness, i am beginning to map certain regions for return explorations.. anyway, that's enough fuel for those that like to start fires, but.. it's also my attempt to describe how i experience 'meditation'.. oh, yeah, time.. well, the same experience can happen in intervals of 10-20 clock seconds, or 3-4 clock hours.. i find standing meditation (Wuji or Zhan Zhuang), 20-40 minutes up to an hour, equally beneficial to seated versions.. similarly, the same 'meditation' just happens as conditions allow, regardless of physical position or activity, the presence is total, local and non-local.. Be well.. I knew you would understand what I'm trying to describe. Thank you for your response. You know, when I have the experience of the mantra returning, it is usually accompanied by a jolt, and a sense that I am catching my breath. I've always wondered if the breathing stops in deep meditation. Is that your experience? This would make a great thread. The Wuji and Zhan Zuang sound interesting, too. I'm starting to understand why I sense your presence here. The discipline i practice has a focus on breath, so breathing is automatically maintained at the level needed to oxygenate the body-mind.. in deep meditation the metabolism slows down considerably (unless panic from unfamiliar experiences shocks the system), so the slower metabolism requires much less oxygen.. at deepest levels, breath 'floats'.. the airways are open, the lungs are open, and the temperature differential between the inside of the body and the outside cause an exchange flow of air that can seem like there is no breath to an observer.. generally, there are four breath-cycles, inhale/exhale, per minute in active meditation such as Taijiquan or QiGong, and less as activity diminishes.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 17:58:22 GMT -5
Greetings.. I knew you would understand what I'm trying to describe. Thank you for your response. You know, when I have the experience of the mantra returning, it is usually accompanied by a jolt, and a sense that I am catching my breath. I've always wondered if the breathing stops in deep meditation. Is that your experience? This would make a great thread. The Wuji and Zhan Zuang sound interesting, too. I'm starting to understand why I sense your presence here. The discipline i practice has a focus on breath, so breathing is automatically maintained at the level needed to oxygenate the body-mind.. in deep meditation the metabolism slows down considerably (unless panic from unfamiliar experiences shocks the system), so the slower metabolism requires much less oxygen.. at deepest levels, breath 'floats'.. the airways are open, the lungs are open, and the temperature differential between the inside of the body and the outside cause an exchange flow of air that can seem like there is no breath to an observer.. generally, there are four breath-cycles, inhale/exhale, per minute in active meditation such as Taijiquan or QiGong, and less as activity diminishes.. Be well.. ::Bowing:: Thank you.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 18:02:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. What wind, rain, elements, etc? Without the experience present, those are just thoughts in the mind, which for the most part are not thought about. Despite your advise to look with a still mind, your mind is filled with the model of the world that you've accumulated through experience. Maybe its time to start looking with an EMPTY mind... Ahh.. so, when the questions reveal something you don't want to admit/address, you choose to try to turn it back? let the panic go, actually study the question i posed to you.. that panic was you 'seeing clearly' for an instant.. it's really cool if you can let go of the panic.. Be well.. You state: " the content falls away when the eyes close, so does the room, they are no longer present in the experience that is actually had.".. i'm suggesting that they are actually present in the experience you are actually having, protecting you from the elements, but.. you seem believe "out of sight, out of mind", as if when you don't see it, it goes away.. what happens when you close your eyes on an airplane? Be well..
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 18:03:47 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. The discipline i practice has a focus on breath, so breathing is automatically maintained at the level needed to oxygenate the body-mind.. in deep meditation the metabolism slows down considerably (unless panic from unfamiliar experiences shocks the system), so the slower metabolism requires much less oxygen.. at deepest levels, breath 'floats'.. the airways are open, the lungs are open, and the temperature differential between the inside of the body and the outside cause an exchange flow of air that can seem like there is no breath to an observer.. generally, there are four breath-cycles, inhale/exhale, per minute in active meditation such as Taijiquan or QiGong, and less as activity diminishes.. Be well.. ::Bowing:: Thank you. Ditto.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Jul 3, 2013 19:26:04 GMT -5
Greetings.. Ahh.. so, when the questions reveal something you don't want to admit/address, you choose to try to turn it back? let the panic go, actually study the question i posed to you.. that panic was you 'seeing clearly' for an instant.. it's really cool if you can let go of the panic.. Be well.. You state: " the content falls away when the eyes close, so does the room, they are no longer present in the experience that is actually had.".. i'm suggesting that they are actually present in the experience you are actually having, protecting you from the elements, but.. you seem believe "out of sight, out of mind", as if when you don't see it, it goes away.. what happens when you close your eyes on an airplane? Be well.. Drawing on memory as the experience is not present with me. In closing eyes, attention shifts from the visual input to feeling the vibrations occurring and allowing them to lull me (the body-mind) to sleep. The thoughts about being on an airplane traveling from one destination to another hang around, but drift away as sleep and dreaming take over. Another world is visited in dreaming. Groggily waking from a sleep cycle, vibration is felt and an eyelid is cracked to see the back of a seat ahead of me, consistent with the form factor of airplane seats. The thoughts come back to mind about where I'm going and where I've come from. Still another 30 minutes to the destination, back to less content in the conscious experience. This is quite the turn around in message for you, Tzu. First you've been telling me to drop my beliefs and surrounding story, now you're telling me I'm deluding myself if I don't hang on to the beliefs and story about what is happening in the world apart from my immediate experience. Which is it? That there is an objective world beyond the veil of perception is an assumption, a belief. One does not have to believe it. One can simply move from one experience to the next, letting the mind do what it does which is store memories about past experiences, build stories about what it thinks is "supposed to" happen. etc. None of that has to be believed.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 3, 2013 21:27:23 GMT -5
Greetings.. You state: " the content falls away when the eyes close, so does the room, they are no longer present in the experience that is actually had.".. i'm suggesting that they are actually present in the experience you are actually having, protecting you from the elements, but.. you seem believe "out of sight, out of mind", as if when you don't see it, it goes away.. what happens when you close your eyes on an airplane? Be well.. Drawing on memory as the experience is not present with me. In closing eyes, attention shifts from the visual input to feeling the vibrations occurring and allowing them to lull me (the body-mind) to sleep. The thoughts about being on an airplane traveling from one destination to another hang around, but drift away as sleep and dreaming take over. Another world is visited in dreaming. Groggily waking from a sleep cycle, vibration is felt and an eyelid is cracked to see the back of a seat ahead of me, consistent with the form factor of airplane seats. The thoughts come back to mind about where I'm going and where I've come from. Still another 30 minutes to the destination, back to less content in the conscious experience. This is quite the turn around in message for you, Tzu. First you've been telling me to drop my beliefs and surrounding story, now you're telling me I'm deluding myself if I don't hang on to the beliefs and story about what is happening in the world apart from my immediate experience. Which is it? That there is an objective world beyond the veil of perception is an assumption, a belief. One does not have to believe it. One can simply move from one experience to the next, letting the mind do what it does which is store memories about past experiences, build stories about what it thinks is "supposed to" happen. etc. None of that has to be believed. It is what is actually happening.. it is not what you 'think' is happening.. that you asked that question suggests that you aren't aware of the difference.. when you closed your eyes, you didn't fall from the sky, you engaged your mind and told yourself a story and the airplane didn't 'fall away'.. there's no belief involved, you didn't fall from the sky and the airplane didn't vanish.. your belief is in the imaginary explanations you keep trying make for what you want to believe.. let those go.. move from the airplane to the ground to the ride to wherever you are going, but.. let go of trying to explain how you have no control, those explanations are you trying to control how others perceive you and your wants.. Be well..
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