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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 2:45:08 GMT -5
Mind is not an enemy. It is, however, an appearance that comes and goes and changes, and is therefore not the fundamental intelligence that you are in essence. Even IF there is something that is unchanging (and that's not a given, its a speculation), that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what 'you' are. You wouldn't know about change unless you were unchanging, and you obviously are the one who knows. (Don't bother analyzing it. It's a realization.)
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:46:51 GMT -5
Even IF there is something that is unchanging (and that's not a given, its a speculation), that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what 'you' are. You wouldn't know about change unless you were unchanging, and you obviously are the one who knows. (Don't bother analyzing it. It's a realization.) That's not necessarily the case. I gave you examples. 2 cars moving at different speeds, there is an awareness of change. Its speculation that there is an unchanging, its also a decision to say that that is what 'you' are.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 2:49:04 GMT -5
You don't like the implications that Andrew is an illusion, so you lose interest in the question. Get in line behind 7 billion other mind identified peeps. I don't care whether Andrew is an illusion or not. It makes no difference, I am fine whether he is or isn't. The issue is not about whether something is real or illusion, the issue is how much we need to defend it either way. And how much do you care and think it makes a difference whether Phil is an illusion or not? Of course you're fine as long as you don't know and don't care. You have the experience of separate, volitional Andrew, and that's all you care about. That's called self delusion.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 2:52:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. I'm sure that you believe that you are right, but.. no matter how many times that belief is repeated, nor by whom, it remains a belief.. you're still stuck in a right/wrong belief system, either/or.. you live the reality of the duality you say you don't believe.. which is really kinda funny.. Be well.. Yes, it is kinda funny. Enigma has to be the worst non-dualist on the planet. Reefs is a close second. One good thingy about using me as your common enemy is that it has brought you and Tzu closer together. It's very touching, really.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:52:50 GMT -5
I don't care whether Andrew is an illusion or not. It makes no difference, I am fine whether he is or isn't. The issue is not about whether something is real or illusion, the issue is how much we need to defend it either way. And how much do you care and think it makes a difference whether Phil is an illusion or not? Of course you're fine as long as you don't know and don't care. You have the experience of separate, volitional Andrew, and that's all you care about. That's called self delusion. I have the experience of being able to make a choice, of having a sense of control at times, of being able to cause something to happen. I also have the experience of someone calling my name and recognizing that that is me they are talking to. And all of that may be illusion, or delusion, but it doesn't matter. I'm not trying to run away from it.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:54:53 GMT -5
Yes, it is kinda funny. Enigma has to be the worst non-dualist on the planet. Reefs is a close second. One good thingy about using me as your common enemy is that it has brought you and Tzu closer together. It's very touching, really. That was funny but I wouldn't say me and Tzu are 'close'. Perhaps more 'aligned' than in the old 'free will' days though. Though I took a bit of a chance using the word 'non-duality' there, as I wrote it I felt a slight sense of....'this could be a bad idea!'.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 3:22:48 GMT -5
Want to make something clear E. I don't consider you an enemy. In fact, I basically like talking to you. I think you are wrong about stuff, and I think your frame of reference is limiting to say the least, yet I experience a general harmlessness to your energy, and that's good enough for me. At most, I might say you a bit of an... 'adversary', but only on the forum.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:21:21 GMT -5
The issue is not about whether something is real or illusion Spoken like a true sand-eater.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 4:23:10 GMT -5
The issue is not about whether something is real or illusion Spoken like a true sand-eater. Said the fundamental dualist
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:24:28 GMT -5
Sounds like something happened that made you want to dismiss realizations, so you imagined you realized realizations don't mean anything. No. 'Realizations' were seen through. They weren't dismissed as much as released to the proverbial void, and yet that didn't mean that I went back to the way things were prior to any realizations, and that's because attachments had been released in the process. Yeah, there's a lot going on in the 'void'. Chock-full of released stuff that 'void'... .
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:29:29 GMT -5
You know some things about dogs that I don't know because you're looking through some beliefs that I don't hold to be true. In the same way that you conflate your ideas about a realization with the realization itself, you take your thoughts about appearances to be your actual experience of appearances. I have those thoughts too, but I don't mistake them for what's actually appearing. Woof! Woof! The experience imagination here is direct. People are experienced imagined to exist, dogs are experienced imagined to exist, and people and dogs are experience imagined to exist in different locations to each other. In order to experience imagine dogs and people as 'appearances', you I have to be experiencing imagining indirectly i.e. through a filter of belief. Yup, yup.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:31:17 GMT -5
Well, that's how it goes with conclusions. Obviously not. Conclusions are fixed by definition. Conclusions can be questioned, i.e. not fixed.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:32:10 GMT -5
Only mind could make mind an enemy as part of an escape plan. Which is what you guys do in positing yourselves firmly as prior to mind No. That's just what Mr Extra-Literal is imagining.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:32:48 GMT -5
Only mind could make mind an enemy as part of an escape plan. And then conclude that the plan worked. And then publish a recipe book.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 4:35:53 GMT -5
Want to make something clear E. I don't consider you an enemy. In fact, I basically like talking to you. I think you are wrong about stuff, and I think your frame of reference is limiting to say the least, yet I experience a general harmlessness to your energy, and that's good enough for me. At most, I might say you a bit of an... 'adversary', but only on the forum. You know Enigma off the forum?
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