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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 0:06:34 GMT -5
I'd say this is pretty much where your agenda consumes the conversation. You haven't gotten him to admit the answer you've been holding and so now you tell him that's what he's supposed to be saying. If I ever fall into doubt about what I'm experiencing, i know I can always come to Andrew to explain it to me. But what's that explanation worth?
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Post by Reefs on Jul 3, 2013 0:07:58 GMT -5
Greetings.. In the same way that E redundantly repeats the "oneness is truth".. it like shouting "fire!!" in a crowded theater, and no one runs for the the door.. E expects people to accept his beliefs, A suspects that E can actually see what is actually happening, but E has invested too much of his 'identity' into the 'oneness' mantra, and is willing to continue the ruse.. i suspect so, too.. it would be more productive to explore Life happening that sorting-out the beliefs that become obstacles to that exploration.. Be well.. Oneness is the truth! Everybody run for your lives! Hehe. Gasp! There! He said it again!
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:14:28 GMT -5
Greetings.. Mind doesn't appear to you.. it is inherent as an aspect of what you are, it is not separate from 'you'.. you E, use mind to try to defeat mind, and consequently defeat your beliefs about mind.. you are not 'looking', you are 'thinking' about how to create illusions about mind.. just look, and there is no need to concern yourself with 'mind'.. mind is an enemy 'you' have created.. Be well.. Mind is not an enemy. It is, however, an appearance that comes and goes and changes, and is therefore not the fundamental intelligence that you are in essence. Even IF there is something that is unchanging (and that's not a given, its a speculation), that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what 'you' are.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:16:37 GMT -5
Yes, 'realizations' are really just more ideas. The snake/rope metaphor does not apply to this. I may have had the realization that 'Andrew' is not who I am, but at no point has 'Andrew' been discarded. Someone calls my name and there is a recognition that I am being spoken to. I have no interest in whether Andrew is or isn't an illusion these days, either way is just another point of perception. You don't like the implications that Andrew is an illusion, so you lose interest in the question. Get in line behind 7 billion other mind identified peeps. I don't care whether Andrew is an illusion or not. It makes no difference, I am fine whether he is or isn't. The issue is not about whether something is real or illusion, the issue is how much we need to defend it either way. And how much do you care and think it makes a difference whether Phil is an illusion or not?
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:17:27 GMT -5
Then you'll stop b!tching about other's mocking? Yes. I haven't been bitching about other's mocking since I started mocking
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:19:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. What i find is that folks can have different depths of clarity regarding a realization, which is a function of how well mind translates, but realizations cannot conflict. One of us is most certainly wrong. I'm sure that you believe that you are right, but.. no matter how many times that belief is repeated, nor by whom, it remains a belief.. you're still stuck in a right/wrong belief system, either/or.. you live the reality of the duality you say you don't believe.. which is really kinda funny.. Be well.. Yes, it is kinda funny. Enigma has to be the worst non-dualist on the planet. Reefs is a close second.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:20:35 GMT -5
I had realizations which had a profound impact, but eventually realizations were realized to be just another point of perception, another idea that is not necessarily true or false. I still realize stuff, but the realizing happens on the surface these days. They are just more 'waves'. Sounds like something happened that made you want to dismiss realizations, so you imagined you realized realizations don't mean anything. No. 'Realizations' were seen through. They weren't dismissed as much as released to the proverbial void, and yet that didn't mean that I went back to the way things were prior to any realizations, and that's because attachments had been released in the process.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:24:19 GMT -5
I'm not telling E what he's supposed to be saying, I'm telling him what he is experiencing but is in denial of. Though in one way, it's true that E does sorta experience the appearance of a dog rather than the existence of a dog, but that's because there is abstract conceptualization filtering his perception. You know some things about dogs that I don't know because you're looking through some beliefs that I don't hold to be true. In the same way that you conflate your ideas about a realization with the realization itself, you take your thoughts about appearances to be your actual experience of appearances. I have those thoughts too, but I don't mistake them for what's actually appearing. Woof! Woof! The experience here is direct. People are experienced to exist, dogs are experienced to exist, and people and dogs are experience to exist in different locations to each other. In order to experience dogs and people as 'appearances', you have to be experiencing indirectly i.e. through a filter of belief. And then you have to equate 'existence' with 'Being', which defeats the purpose of the idea of 'Being' entirely. Its such a mess.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:27:07 GMT -5
There is one crucial realization that you've missed, or that hasn't happened, that supersedes all the other non-dual realizations. And will rescue me from dissolving into the heart of God. Yes, I know about that one. It would mean being okay with being plain old Phil again.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:30:59 GMT -5
And telling me what they are. By telling you that it's not 10 o'clock I'm telling you what time it is now? E has said that nothing is ultimately true is a realization. That's a 'telling me what it is' realization. I'm pretty sure he has also said that it can be realized that oneness is the truth.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:31:37 GMT -5
I had realizations which had a profound impact, but eventually realizations were realized to be just another point of perception, another idea that is not necessarily true or false. I still realize stuff, but the realizing happens on the surface these days. They are just more 'waves'. Well, that's how it goes with conclusions. Obviously not. Conclusions are fixed by definition.
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:33:04 GMT -5
I'm not telling E what he's supposed to be saying, I'm telling him what he is experiencing but is in denial of. Though in one way, it's true that E does sorta experience the appearance of a dog rather than the existence of a dog, but that's because there is abstract conceptualization filtering his perception. IOW, you are telling Enigma what he should be saying if he were just honest and man enough to stick to your version of reality (i.e. your script). Its more telling him what he wouldn't say if he was directly experiencing (or manned up to use your words!)
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Post by andrew on Jul 3, 2013 2:34:06 GMT -5
Mind is not an enemy. It is, however, an appearance that comes and goes and changes, and is therefore not the fundamental intelligence that you are in essence. Only mind could make mind an enemy as part of an escape plan. Which is what you guys do in positing yourselves firmly as prior to mind
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 2:35:29 GMT -5
Mind is not an enemy. It is, however, an appearance that comes and goes and changes, and is therefore not the fundamental intelligence that you are in essence. Only mind could make mind an enemy as part of an escape plan. And then conclude that the plan worked.
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 2:41:44 GMT -5
Oneness is the truth! Everybody run for your lives! Hehe. Gasp! There! He said it again! I obviously have a rebellious streak in me. The more I'm told I can't say oneness is true or existential questions are misconceived or realization is important, the more I wanna say it.
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