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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:08:21 GMT -5
Do you mean that you are like an idiot or you are mimicking an idiot?
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Post by Beingist on Jul 1, 2013 20:08:42 GMT -5
Debris isn't a 'Where'... I think your pointer is malfunctioning... Unless Debris is the name of a municipality. 'Twould be a rather peculiar name for a town, but I've seen more peculiar. Peculiar, MO and Intercourse, PA come to mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 20:13:16 GMT -5
Debris isn't a 'Where'... I think your pointer is malfunctioning... I rather think your cleverness has finally reached the end of its rope I don't think it's as clever as being told to look 'where' you are pointing...
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 20:14:46 GMT -5
I rather think your cleverness has finally reached the end of its rope I don't think it's as clever as being told to look 'where' you are pointing... Like I said, your cleverness has reached its end.
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:15:33 GMT -5
I don't know how to relate an experience of something that isn't an experience. Fair enough. But if you have never experienced a realization I am not sure how you can speak with such certainty about what it is or what it isn't? I suspect, though, the we are talking apples and oranges so I will drop it. I'm saying that realizations occur, but they are not experiences. Experiences are events that occur in time; movements that can be replayed from memory; happenings. Realization is unique in that it is none of these things because it is not a movement of mind. Some peeps here like to talk about clarity happening in a still mind. If realizations happens in a still mind, how can it be an event happening in mind that results in an experience that can be related? I can (and do, rather continually) relate how mind is informed by these realizations, but I cannot relate the realizations themselves. They are not the realization of 'something'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 20:16:29 GMT -5
Do you mean that you are like an idiot or you are mimicking an idiot? In this moment?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 20:21:31 GMT -5
I don't think it's as clever as being told to look 'where' you are pointing... Like I said, your cleverness has reached its end. 'Where' must be a really secret place if even the pointer doesn't know where it is...
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 20:24:25 GMT -5
Like I said, your cleverness has reached its end. 'Where' must be a really secret place if even the pointer doesn't know where it is... Didn't I just tell you where it's pointing? I dunno why that's so difficult to comprehend for you. Maybe drop the cleverness for a change and take a fresh look?
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2013 20:38:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. Fair enough. But if you have never experienced a realization I am not sure how you can speak with such certainty about what it is or what it isn't? I suspect, though, the we are talking apples and oranges so I will drop it. I'm saying that realizations occur, but they are not experiences. Experiences are events that occur in time; movements that can be replayed from memory; happenings. Realization is unique in that it is none of these things because it is not a movement of mind. Some peeps here like to talk about clarity happening in a still mind. If realizations happens in a still mind, how can it be an event happening in mind that results in an experience that can be related? I can (and do, rather continually) relate how mind is informed by these realizations, but I cannot relate the realizations themselves. They are not the realization of 'something'. You seem to be shifting the target to wherever you are shooting.. there's nothing particularly special about realization, until someone attaches that sort of value to it.. Realizations are experienced, otherwise there's no basis for pointing/discussing.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:39:46 GMT -5
As you often do, you've reversed it. You don't have a self evident experience that an appearance is a dog that exists. You have to conclude that. If you miss where you made that conclusion and take your conclusions to be self evident (that sounds a lot like Tzu) then you might imagine that 'it's just an appearance' is a conclusion. Basically, you step into your assumption/conclusion process wherever you want to, and declare everything after that an assumption or conclusion that you should ignore. That way you can conclude whatever you want and call it self evident and make yourself right and everybody else wrong. check yourself there dude, I said 'MOST self evident' It makes no sense to say MOST self evident, so I took that to be a brain fart. Stuff is either self evident or it is not. No, it is only "more self evident" to you from the conviction that it exists outside of you rather than in your consciousness. What is most self evident to you is what you believe, but that has nothing to do with self evident or what may actually be the case. You're going to keep asking those questions for days until I answer, aren't you? What I experience is 'woof, woof'. Everything else is a thought ABOUT it. I experience the same thing watching Lassie reruns, but I conclude that one is on a TV screen, and it doesn't exist in any form other than light patterns, and the other wants to go for a walk and could be said to exist in that context. These are conclusions ABOUT my 'woof, woof' experience. To be clear, it's not more evident to me that something exists outside of me than it is that things are appearances to me. What is most evident is that appearances are appearing. That is also what is most evident to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 20:40:16 GMT -5
'Where' must be a really secret place if even the pointer doesn't know where it is... Didn't I just tell you where it's pointing? I dunno why that's so difficult to comprehend for you. Maybe drop the cleverness for a change and take a fresh look? It's not difficult at all to comprehend, I know the difference between What and Where...
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Post by Beingist on Jul 1, 2013 20:40:34 GMT -5
Fair enough. But if you have never experienced a realization I am not sure how you can speak with such certainty about what it is or what it isn't? I suspect, though, the we are talking apples and oranges so I will drop it. I'm saying that realizations occur, but they are not experiences. Experiences are events that occur in time; movements that can be replayed from memory; happenings. Realization is unique in that it is none of these things because it is not a movement of mind. Some peeps here like to talk about clarity happening in a still mind. If realizations happens in a still mind, how can it be an event happening in mind that results in an experience that can be related? I can (and do, rather continually) relate how mind is informed by these realizations, but I cannot relate the realizations themselves. They are not the realization of 'something'. I dunno, E. I mean, on the one hand, I can agree that the result of the realization (or, subsequent to the movement of the realization, if that works) isn't an experience. More like an expansion of consciousness, or perspective, as you've called it. But I can never forget April 24, 1994 as the date of my most major realization, and it sure seemed to me like an experience. How else would that date be etched in my memory? (Seriously, I remember that date more easily than my own birthday). Though, I have to admit that what I remember of it now wasn't so much that I realized ____, but that I let go such a large part of my belief system (which at the time was Roman Catholicism). Nonetheless, it's just hard for me to say that it wasn't an experience. Mind played a big role in all that.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2013 20:44:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Then, 'primacy' can lose its primacy.. Be well.. What could that possibly mean? That there is no 'primacy' where clarity is present.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:56:44 GMT -5
I'm saying all ideas and appearances are imaginary. Realization is neither. If you want to hear it again, go ahead and stuff your words in my mouth again. I have no idea what yer talking about. So if realizations are not ideas, appearances, or imaginary, they must be disco dancing with whatever is prior to ideas and appearances and imagination, yes? They are out having lunch with a prior imaginer, yes? And you say that you are not holding onto a model! Well, you're the one assembling the model for me. I'm just telling you what they are not.
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 21:02:59 GMT -5
I lllllike it! I don't really use the term noticing much, does noticing make a ripple in the mind? I like 'noticing' because it implies simplicity and effortlessness. A turning of attention, maybe. Noticing always seems to happen when there are no ripples on the surface, but yeah, mind would be expected to get excited about it and start rippling. If it starts disco dancing with Andy, the 'noticing' may be trashed.
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