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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 19:51:23 GMT -5
'Beyond mind' is a pointer, not to be taken literally as you have done. We could say, though not with word lawyering accuracy, that realization holds a unique position between thought and simple, empty awareness. As such, it can clarify conceptualization without, itself, being conceptual. I have no problem with referring to that as seeing beyond mind. The only reason such a thing is possible is because you are not mind. Mind appears to you. Yes, taking pointers literally seems to be a widespread issue around here. Instead of looking where the pointer is pointing, the Extra-Literal folks lick them, take saliva samples and present their saliva sample analysis to the forum as if that would matter somehow when all they had to do was just turn their heads and just look into the direction the pointer was pointing and then forgetaboutit. Where??
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 19:51:43 GMT -5
How is mind known? We're likely not operating with the same ontology. My use of "mind" doesn't encompass everything. Mind is bounded and what is aware of mind is not mind itself. Yeah...I don't see any need to divvy it up like that.....it's all speculation anyway...creating labels to try to pin down what's happening. The reason for divvying it up is to talk about how it's already been divvied up, and to point to that. Otherwise there would be no need to speak of it at all. The notion that you can be aware of stuff in mind but can't be aware of stuff beyond mind is already divvying up. That which knows mind, can be known. In your divvied up reality, this cannot be. That's your bottom line assumption/conclusion that you have mistaken for a truth. How many well respected teachers have said 'oneness is the truth', and repeated that over and over? Would you raise your hand in a satsang and say 'Hey dude, you're obviously attached to that knowing and you're creating a foundation upon it.'
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 19:52:49 GMT -5
What I said above actually has nothing to do with how words are defined. If anything, it calls into question the idea that we can be aware of anything that exists, outside of mind. E defines realization in a way that seems to place it outside of mind. I (and I think Andrew too) don't so much question the definition of that word, (although that may have some point occurred) but more the very idea that there is seeing that CAN occur beyond or outside of mind. 'Beyond mind' is a pointer, not to be taken literally as you have done. We could say, though not with word lawyering accuracy, that realization holds a unique position between thought and simple, empty awareness. As such, it can clarify conceptualization without, itself, being conceptual. I have no problem with referring to that as seeing beyond mind. The only reason such a thing is possible is because you are not mind. Mind appears to you. 'Its all imagined, except for realizations which are dining out somewhere between the imaginer and the imagined'?
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 19:56:05 GMT -5
'Beyond mind' is a pointer, not to be taken literally as you have done. We could say, though not with word lawyering accuracy, that realization holds a unique position between thought and simple, empty awareness. As such, it can clarify conceptualization without, itself, being conceptual. I have no problem with referring to that as seeing beyond mind. The only reason such a thing is possible is because you are not mind. Mind appears to you. 'Its all imagined, except for realizations which are dining out somewhere between the imaginer and the imagined'? You are still taking realizations as 'something' you can hang your enormous collection of conceptual hats at, right?
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 19:56:57 GMT -5
Yes, taking pointers literally seems to be a widespread issue around here. Instead of looking where the pointer is pointing, the Extra-Literal folks lick them, take saliva samples and present their saliva sample analysis to the forum as if that would matter somehow when all they had to do was just turn their heads and just look into the direction the pointer was pointing and then forgetaboutit. Where?? Debris.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 19:57:39 GMT -5
'Its all imagined, except for realizations which are dining out somewhere between the imaginer and the imagined'? You are still taking realizations as 'something' you can hang your enormous collection of conceptual hats at, right? I'm just keeping it simple. In a choice between Being and Mind, realizations would have to be Mind.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 19:59:53 GMT -5
You are still taking realizations as 'something' you can hang your enormous collection of conceptual hats at, right? I'm just keeping it simple. In a choice between Being and Mind, realizations would have to be Mind. You already know that our definition of 'realization' is very different from yours and you also know that we only use it as a pointer. So as long as you take everything literally there's no common ground for a conversation. Have you noticed?
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 19:59:56 GMT -5
They ARE subjective and empty. Yes. That's because they are ideas. They are not prior to, or apart from 'the imagined'. No, it's because realization is not the seeing of an object/idea.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 20:02:45 GMT -5
I'm just keeping it simple. In a choice between Being and Mind, realizations would have to be Mind. You already know that our definition of 'realization' is very different from yours and you also know that we only use it as a pointer. So as long as you take everything literally there's no common ground for a conversation. Have you noticed? What? So a realization is a pointer now? I don't think our definition is much different, I'm just not elevating 'realizations' as much as you guys because I am positing them within experience, and therefore they come and go just like everything else.
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:03:32 GMT -5
Maybe you can teach Steve-o if he ever becomes willing to know how. An empty mind can be a beautiful thing, like standing on a mountain top on a crystal clear day when you can see to the horizon. Everything can be seen, anything can be talked about and the view remains as clear as ever. Hunched over, playing with one's fingers, muddling over and over 'I must not know anything. I must not know anything', is a very different view. As a general comment to nobody, I've mentioned before that I have a tolerance level for insanity that gets exceeded on this forum from time to time. Right now is one of those times. Be assured, I'll get over it. A day trip to a mental care facility might help boost your tolerance level, there. I'm quite sure it would, though I don't think it needs to be boosted. The best thing may be to simply respond to it.
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 20:04:58 GMT -5
My question exactly (though, it didn't seem important enough to ask). I only ask because my insanity tolerance threshold has been exceeded.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 20:05:01 GMT -5
You already know that our definition of 'realization' is very different from yours and you also know that we only use it as a pointer. So as long as you take everything literally there's no common ground for a conversation. Have you noticed? What? So a realization is a pointer now? I don't think our definition is much different, I'm just not elevating 'realizations' as much as you guys because I am positing them within experience, and therefore they come and go just like everything else. So you think your heaps of verbiage are somehow better than our heaps of verbiage?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 20:05:18 GMT -5
Debris isn't a 'Where'... I think your pointer is malfunctioning...
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Post by Beingist on Jul 1, 2013 20:05:38 GMT -5
A day trip to a mental care facility might help boost your tolerance level, there. I'm quite sure it would, though I don't think it needs to be boosted. The best thing may be to simply respond to it. Works for me.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 1, 2013 20:06:31 GMT -5
Debris isn't a 'Where'... I think your pointer is malfunctioning... I rather think your cleverness has finally reached the end of its rope
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