|
Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2013 12:42:59 GMT -5
Greetings.. But when the realizations never happened, pretending to rejoin the dreamstate is just a pretense to re-activate the egoic self as an enlightened self. Nothing has changed except the addition of some spiritual arrogance. As I just said, transcending is inclusion and going beyond. We don't get rid of 'ego', we dont get rid of the 'I-thought, we don't get rid of 'Andrew/Phil', we don't get rid of experiencing ourselves as an individual/person, we don't get rid of experiencing the ability to make something happen, we don't get rid of the sense of being able to control something, we don't even get rid of all our attachments and fears. That stuff just loses it primacy. Then, 'primacy' can lose its primacy.. Be well..
|
|
|
Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 14:40:11 GMT -5
As I said, to you the following is a dog: The following is a cat: The following is a bird: The following is a flea: Might be wrong, but sounds to me as if you like to keep 'ideas' apart from 'territory', and 'reality' apart from 'imagination'. I like the map to accurately reflect the territory. No point in communicating (using the mapping between words and experiences) if the map is not accurately reflecting territory.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:58:11 GMT -5
What I see Andrew doing is pointing out that some use a 'realization' to create a foundation or a 'place to hang their hat.' I see E doing this with his 'realization' of 'Oneness is true, separation is false'. In calling this a realization, (And revering a realization as a special kind of illumination that he regards to be different from all other ideas, as it is deemed to have occurred outside of mind), it is not subject to questioning, as are other mere ideas, and thus, it serves as a place for him to anchor onto....to grasp hold of as a foundation. Andrew is saying that even a realization can be and (if we value freedom) should be, subject to questioning and in seeing this, there is no longer any foundational 'truth' to hang our hat upon....to attach to. What you are telling me is that the whole purpose of redefining words is about making E and R wrong? In essence you believe aprior that there shouldn't be a way to hang a hat, you see someone you think is hanging a hat and proceed to redefine words in such a way you think it takes their supposed hat-hanging away. Redefining words to make someone wrong (implicitly you right) is sophistry. What I said above actually has nothing to do with how words are defined. If anything, it calls into question the idea that we can be aware of anything that exists, outside of mind. E defines realization in a way that seems to place it outside of mind. I (and I think Andrew too) don't so much question the definition of that word, (although that may have some point occurred) but more the very idea that there is seeing that CAN occur beyond or outside of mind.
|
|
|
Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 15:11:32 GMT -5
What you are telling me is that the whole purpose of redefining words is about making E and R wrong? In essence you believe aprior that there shouldn't be a way to hang a hat, you see someone you think is hanging a hat and proceed to redefine words in such a way you think it takes their supposed hat-hanging away. Redefining words to make someone wrong (implicitly you right) is sophistry. What I said above actually has nothing to do with how words are defined. If anything, it calls into question the idea that we can be aware of anything that exists, outside of mind. E defines realization in a way that seems to place it outside of mind. I (and I think Andrew too) don't so much question the definition of that word, (although that may have some point occurred) but more the very idea that there is seeing that CAN occur beyond or outside of mind. How is mind known? We're likely not operating with the same ontology. My use of "mind" doesn't encompass everything. Mind is bounded and what is aware of mind is not mind itself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 15:30:20 GMT -5
What I said above actually has nothing to do with how words are defined. If anything, it calls into question the idea that we can be aware of anything that exists, outside of mind. E defines realization in a way that seems to place it outside of mind. I (and I think Andrew too) don't so much question the definition of that word, (although that may have some point occurred) but more the very idea that there is seeing that CAN occur beyond or outside of mind. How is mind known? We're likely not operating with the same ontology. My use of "mind" doesn't encompass everything. Mind is bounded and what is aware of mind is not mind itself. Yeah...I don't see any need to divvy it up like that.....it's all speculation anyway...creating labels to try to pin down what's happening. Bottom line: If someone says; Oneness is true, he 'knows' something. If he keeps arguing for it over and over it, he's likely attached to that knowing and has created a foundation upon it.
|
|
|
Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 15:36:02 GMT -5
How is mind known? We're likely not operating with the same ontology. My use of "mind" doesn't encompass everything. Mind is bounded and what is aware of mind is not mind itself. Yeah...I don't see any need to divvy it up like that.....it's all speculation anyway...creating labels to try to pin down what's happening. Bottom line: If someone says; Oneness is true, he 'knows' something. If he keeps arguing for it over and over it, he's likely attached to that knowing and has created a foundation upon it. Through the very same rules of inference you're applying to conclude the underlined, your continued arguing with that person over it demonstrates a counter knowing and an equal attachment to asserting that counter knowing.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 15:52:35 GMT -5
Three paragraphs is a text wall?? I don't know why you don't have much issue with that. It's the opposite of everything you've been saying. Not really. I don't have a problem with the potency of realizations. I have a problem with the idea that they are not subjective and empty. They ARE subjective and empty.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 15:54:57 GMT -5
Yeah...I don't see any need to divvy it up like that.....it's all speculation anyway...creating labels to try to pin down what's happening. Bottom line: If someone says; Oneness is true, he 'knows' something. If he keeps arguing for it over and over it, he's likely attached to that knowing and has created a foundation upon it. Through the very same rules of inference you're applying to conclude the underlined, your continued arguing with that person over it demonstrates a counter knowing and an equal attachment to asserting that counter knowing. Yeah....maybe.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 15:57:07 GMT -5
Gnaw, you're just on a mission to not know anything and you figure everybody else should be playing that game along with you. I'd have thought you'd have noticed by now that it can't work. You can't unknow. The direction is always forward. Haha, now you are also assuming too much, noticing to much, and imagining too much. It's not a big surprise that in a place where folks are picked at for clinging to ideas and beliefs, that you are consistently "the most set upon", and the most ferociously attacked, it's like a pack of Wolves coming at you from every direction, nearly everyday, for years...your ideas are attacked almost every hour of every day for all this time, and yet you still cling to them, it's very impressive in some ways. But rest assured, you can just "not know" even after acquiring a lifetime worth or knowing, understanding, and realization. If you would like to explore this, I can try to help you, or you can probably call on ZD, he has a wonderful method of opening a space of "not knowing" that he use to talk about often, but there are many many ways to open a space of "not knowing". If you would like some recommendations, let me know. But please, allow yourself the possibility that you will not be trapped in "knowing" and "the direction is always forward" forever. If you cling to those ideas tight enough, you might just bind yourself to them for this whole life. But no worries either way, in this experience, most things change eventually. For what its worth, I am almost continuously "unknowing" stuff lately, most of the time, there is no knowing, or thinking, or understanding, or realization of any kind over here, not even Being, and when I do know something, it seems to only last long enough for me to finish typing the post, or saying the sentence....then it just disappears. ZD doesn't come here and talk endlessly about what he doesn't know. On that much we agree.
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 15:57:14 GMT -5
Not really. I don't have a problem with the potency of realizations. I have a problem with the idea that they are not subjective and empty. They ARE subjective and empty. Yes. That's because they are ideas. They are not prior to, or apart from 'the imagined'.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 15:58:33 GMT -5
Esteban, yes very good, Spanish for Steve ¿no? You've another week of vacation to go. I will also refer you to read back your last PM to me; you're clearly not a man of your word. Give him a break, he doesn't know about calendars and such.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 15:59:26 GMT -5
Gunnin the engine would unnecessarily add more carbon dioxide into the environment. Does our cliff flyer have no environmental consciousness? It's a Prius! Okay, that different then.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 16:06:04 GMT -5
To state the obvious, it's no easier from the outside looking in to tell if you two are just clinging to a foundationless foundation than it is to tell if you're right or wrong about E&R having a foundation that they've explicitly disclaimed over and over again as anything but a set of pointers ... To be clear, by "to tell" I mean a facial examination of the words on a page only. ... and paaaaaallleeeez ... I've already explained to Andy that he doesn't have a monopoly on the positionless position and make no representations about what's going on over here whatsoever ... so spare me the logic, reasoning, arguments and debate. What I can tell you with certainty is that there is no attachment here to any 'position', however, that does not mean a freedom from all attachment. There may well be some level of attachment to my kid's well-being for example. Any attachments I have are pretty 'run of the mill', I deal with them as they come up, as part of Life unfolding. And I can also tell you with certainty that both E and R are attached a a foundation, but that doesn't mean I am necessarily correct. I would say the words they use very much do give it away. You wear your insanity like it's a favorite old sweater.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 16:08:39 GMT -5
Assuming I understand what you're addressing, I'm saying that realization itself is not an experience. It's just an expanded awareness that reveals boundaries that were not seen before. There isn't some kind of experience to be had until mind becomes 'informed' of that view, and even then the experience may be quite anti-climactic. In any event, I wasn't saying anything about not being able to experience anything without a story. I was just talking about realizations and trying to disconnect them from experiences and ideas. Perhaps an example or two of your personal experience with realization can help illumine your words for others to see what you are saying better. Do you have any? I don't know how to relate an experience of something that isn't an experience.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2013 16:20:53 GMT -5
Haha, now you are also assuming too much, noticing to much, and imagining too much. It's not a big surprise that in a place where folks are picked at for clinging to ideas and beliefs, that you are consistently "the most set upon", and the most ferociously attacked, it's like a pack of Wolves coming at you from every direction, nearly everyday, for years...your ideas are attacked almost every hour of every day for all this time, and yet you still cling to them, it's very impressive in some ways. But rest assured, you can just "not know" even after acquiring a lifetime worth or knowing, understanding, and realization. If you would like to explore this, I can try to help you, or you can probably call on ZD, he has a wonderful method of opening a space of "not knowing" that he use to talk about often, but there are many many ways to open a space of "not knowing". If you would like some recommendations, let me know. But please, allow yourself the possibility that you will not be trapped in "knowing" and "the direction is always forward" forever. If you cling to those ideas tight enough, you might just bind yourself to them for this whole life. But no worries either way, in this experience, most things change eventually. For what its worth, I am almost continuously "unknowing" stuff lately, most of the time, there is no knowing, or thinking, or understanding, or realization of any kind over here, not even Being, and when I do know something, it seems to only last long enough for me to finish typing the post, or saying the sentence....then it just disappears. And thank God for that...the useless nonsense that comes out of this mind/body is ridiculous lol "I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty." - the original Tzu I love that quote, but I've always tried to be careful not to read too much in to it. I've known how to tie my shoes for a very long time, and am thankful for it. Maybe you can teach Steve-o if he ever becomes willing to know how. An empty mind can be a beautiful thing, like standing on a mountain top on a crystal clear day when you can see to the horizon. Everything can be seen, anything can be talked about and the view remains as clear as ever. Hunched over, playing with one's fingers, muddling over and over 'I must not know anything. I must not know anything', is a very different view. As a general comment to nobody, I've mentioned before that I have a tolerance level for insanity that gets exceeded on this forum from time to time. Right now is one of those times. Be assured, I'll get over it.
|
|