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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:29:14 GMT -5
Oh, I agree there is the experience of ideas being absent. To clarify, what I have been talking about is an expanded definition of 'ideas', which includes more than what we normally take to be 'ideas'. I have been suggesting that everything experienced/perceived is an idea, though we could swap that word for 'imaginary'. And whether it is 'idea' or 'imaginary' (and those words are inadequate really), the point is really to convey that anything experienced/perceived is subjective and empty. I actually agree with that. Yes, its nothing that you wouldn't say yourself. Its just a shame that you have objectified 'realizations' and set them aside as something more special than they are.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:30:22 GMT -5
What I see Andrew doing is pointing out that some use a 'realization' to create a foundation or a 'place to hang their hat.' I see E doing this with his 'realization' of 'Oneness is true, separation is false'. In calling this a realization, (And revering a realization as a special kind of illumination that he regards to be different from all other ideas, as it is deemed to have occurred outside of mind), it is not subject to questioning, as are other mere ideas, and thus, it serves as a place for him to anchor onto....to grasp hold of as a foundation. Andrew is saying that even a realization can be and (if we value freedom) should be, subject to questioning and in seeing this, there is no longer any foundational 'truth' to hang our hat upon....to attach to. Realization doesn't provide one with a foundational truth. Realizations CAN do. Hence why so many spiritual seekers end up identified with Awareness or some such thing.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:35:40 GMT -5
Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? Obviously, F and A don't believe they're Phucked. They believe they are separate persons with the freedom to believe and create what they want, including peace, joy and ease. That doesn't sound like phucked to me. It's actually a rescue plan, since realization would ensure their phuckedness, so they've dismissed that just as they've dismissed true and false and the question of separation and volition and duality and whatever else gets in the way. rolling of eyes happening again. I don't believe I am a separate person, but then I don't believe I am not a separate person. I can comment on the experience, and the experience is that it certainly seems that there are other individuals in a different location in space, it seems as if I have the power to cause certain things happen, it seems as I am able to control certain things (like my car). Its not about true/false, its about the path of least resistance and its about intelligence.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:38:44 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that, no. If anything, I would say, 'we're all phucked so lets leave this non-dual hall of mirrors behind and get the hell on with participating AS IF we really are separate volitional persons that want to live good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful lives. Coz here's the thing. It can't be proved one way or another that there is or isn't a separate volitional person, and more often than not, the path of least resistance does come with experiencing some level of control and power to make something happen, it does come with experiencing some level of 'me here' and 'you there', it does come with some level of experiencing being a person! So as important as realizations are in this 'apparent' process, in the end they too are just another thing to come and go. And there's the full circle personal freedom plan. You aren't phucked at all, are you? You've rationalized your way back to full out self delusion. I wouldn't say I'm phucked, no, but there was a time when I was, and I didn't rationalize my way out. We surrender to being phucked. I read a Jed Mckenna quote recently on here, I think Fig put it up, it resonated with me...I will see if I can find it Okay....''To re-enter the amusement park is to re-suspend dis-belief; to accept the ‘virtual’ reality of the dreamstate as real reality. For instance, I like to pretend that I’m sane and a I have free will. Might as well right? I also like to pretend that I’m my character, that my memories are trustworthy, and that time and space and the world are as them seem. Kinda gotta.''
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:40:28 GMT -5
There's no intermediate with you is there? I either get one liners or text walls! Ya know what though? I don't actually have much issue with that. Three paragraphs is a text wall?? I don't know why you don't have much issue with that. It's the opposite of everything you've been saying. Not really. I don't have a problem with the potency of realizations. I have a problem with the idea that they are not subjective and empty.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:42:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. Assuming I understand what you're addressing, I'm saying that realization itself is not an experience. It's just an expanded awareness that reveals boundaries that were not seen before. There isn't some kind of experience to be had until mind becomes 'informed' of that view, and even then the experience may be quite anti-climactic. In any event, I wasn't saying anything about not being able to experience anything without a story. I was just talking about realizations and trying to disconnect them from experiences and ideas. If you have to 'try' to disconnect what you think realization means from "experiences and ideas", you might want to stop 'trying' and just look at what is actually happening.. you are describing your beliefs about realizations as if those belief are true or accurate, they are just 'your' beliefs about the meanings of a word.. finding a workable consensus for meanings is preferable to insisting that any particular meaning is superior to all others.. Whether it's a 'realization', or learning, or experience, or knowledge, or beliefs, or imagination, it all plays-out in mind, and.. mind's application of it's understanding of information, regardless of the source of the information, is the interaction and influence that directly affects/effects the quality of existence, both for the individual and the collective.. Be well.. Yep
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Post by esteban on Jul 1, 2013 2:51:36 GMT -5
You, also, know too much, see too much, understand too much, and realize too much. Gnaw, you're just on a mission to not know anything and you figure everybody else should be playing that game along with you. I'd have thought you'd have noticed by now that it can't work. You can't unknow. The direction is always forward. Haha, now you are also assuming too much, noticing to much, and imagining too much. It's not a big surprise that in a place where folks are picked at for clinging to ideas and beliefs, that you are consistently "the most set upon", and the most ferociously attacked, it's like a pack of Wolves coming at you from every direction, nearly everyday, for years...your ideas are attacked almost every hour of every day for all this time, and yet you still cling to them, it's very impressive in some ways. But rest assured, you can just "not know" even after acquiring a lifetime worth or knowing, understanding, and realization. If you would like to explore this, I can try to help you, or you can probably call on ZD, he has a wonderful method of opening a space of "not knowing" that he use to talk about often, but there are many many ways to open a space of "not knowing". If you would like some recommendations, let me know. But please, allow yourself the possibility that you will not be trapped in "knowing" and "the direction is always forward" forever. If you cling to those ideas tight enough, you might just bind yourself to them for this whole life. But no worries either way, in this experience, most things change eventually. For what its worth, I am almost continuously "unknowing" stuff lately, most of the time, there is no knowing, or thinking, or understanding, or realization of any kind over here, not even Being, and when I do know something, it seems to only last long enough for me to finish typing the post, or saying the sentence....then it just disappears. And thank God for that...the useless nonsense that comes out of this mind/body is ridiculous lol
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Post by Peter on Jul 1, 2013 3:33:48 GMT -5
Esteban, yes very good, Spanish for Steve ¿no?
You've another week of vacation to go.
I will also refer you to read back your last PM to me; you're clearly not a man of your word.
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2013 4:30:19 GMT -5
seems to me as about as useful as gunnin' the engine! Gunnin the engine would unnecessarily add more carbon dioxide into the environment. Does our cliff flyer have no environmental consciousness? It's a Prius!
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2013 4:41:02 GMT -5
But you are the best example that they indeed CAN be attached to. Not to mention your attachment to your self-image of being non-attached. Asking Google to reveal ducky language...... "Tao Tao that can be very" ***Asking Google WTF*** Dào k? dào f?icháng dào>>>>>>>>>> "Digger digging abundant feichang" ***Giving Google finger and quitting while ahead***
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Post by laughter on Jul 1, 2013 6:21:40 GMT -5
Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.' To state the obvious, it's no easier from the outside looking in to tell if you two are just clinging to a foundationless foundation than it is to tell if you're right or wrong about E&R having a foundation that they've explicitly disclaimed over and over again as anything but a set of pointers ... To be clear, by "to tell" I mean a facial examination of the words on a page only. ... and paaaaaallleeeez ... I've already explained to Andy that he doesn't have a monopoly on the positionless position and make no representations about what's going on over here whatsoever ... so spare me the logic, reasoning, arguments and debate.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 6:37:29 GMT -5
I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.' To state the obvious, it's no easier from the outside looking in to tell if you two are just clinging to a foundationless foundation than it is to tell if you're right or wrong about E&R having a foundation that they've explicitly disclaimed over and over again as anything but a set of pointers ... To be clear, by "to tell" I mean a facial examination of the words on a page only. ... and paaaaaallleeeez ... I've already explained to Andy that he doesn't have a monopoly on the positionless position and make no representations about what's going on over here whatsoever ... so spare me the logic, reasoning, arguments and debate. What I can tell you with certainty is that there is no attachment here to any 'position', however, that does not mean a freedom from all attachment. There may well be some level of attachment to my kid's well-being for example. Any attachments I have are pretty 'run of the mill', I deal with them as they come up, as part of Life unfolding. And I can also tell you with certainty that both E and R are attached a a foundation, but that doesn't mean I am necessarily correct. I would say the words they use very much do give it away.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 1, 2013 7:56:14 GMT -5
Greetings.. With deep love and affection for the lessons you have revealed for me, i say to you.. you are struggling far too mightily with your 'thinking'.. the sting of a wasp is an experience without a story, realizing the clarity of a still mind's awareness is an experience without a story.. it is the story that follows the experience, even when the experience is imagined.. letting go of stories leaves only experiences, imagined experiences require effort, belief.. real experiences just happen, you don't have to 'notice' them, they can't be avoided, only denied/rejected.. Realization is direct experience with what 'is'.. it is revealed into mind/being, either as a story 'about' the experience, or.. as the experience itself, echoing eternally as who/what we 'are becoming'.. we become attachments to stories, or remain present absorbing experiences and becoming what we 'are', that which 'is happening'.. Be well.. Assuming I understand what you're addressing, I'm saying that realization itself is not an experience. It's just an expanded awareness that reveals boundaries that were not seen before. There isn't some kind of experience to be had until mind becomes 'informed' of that view, and even then the experience may be quite anti-climactic. In any event, I wasn't saying anything about not being able to experience anything without a story. I was just talking about realizations and trying to disconnect them from experiences and ideas. Perhaps an example or two of your personal experience with realization can help illumine your words for others to see what you are saying better. Do you have any?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 8:26:15 GMT -5
Gnaw, you're just on a mission to not know anything and you figure everybody else should be playing that game along with you. I'd have thought you'd have noticed by now that it can't work. You can't unknow. The direction is always forward. Haha, now you are also assuming too much, noticing to much, and imagining too much. It's not a big surprise that in a place where folks are picked at for clinging to ideas and beliefs, that you are consistently "the most set upon", and the most ferociously attacked, it's like a pack of Wolves coming at you from every direction, nearly everyday, for years...your ideas are attacked almost every hour of every day for all this time, and yet you still cling to them, it's very impressive in some ways. But rest assured, you can just "not know" even after acquiring a lifetime worth or knowing, understanding, and realization. If you would like to explore this, I can try to help you, or you can probably call on ZD, he has a wonderful method of opening a space of "not knowing" that he use to talk about often, but there are many many ways to open a space of "not knowing". If you would like some recommendations, let me know. But please, allow yourself the possibility that you will not be trapped in "knowing" and "the direction is always forward" forever. If you cling to those ideas tight enough, you might just bind yourself to them for this whole life. But no worries either way, in this experience, most things change eventually. For what its worth, I am almost continuously "unknowing" stuff lately, most of the time, there is no knowing, or thinking, or understanding, or realization of any kind over here, not even Being, and when I do know something, it seems to only last long enough for me to finish typing the post, or saying the sentence....then it just disappears. And thank God for that...the useless nonsense that comes out of this mind/body is ridiculous lol "I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty." - the original Tzu I love that quote, but I've always tried to be careful not to read too much in to it. I've known how to tie my shoes for a very long time, and am thankful for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 8:49:55 GMT -5
"I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty." - the original Tzu I love that quote, but I've always tried to be careful not to read too much in to it. Kinda grabs ya' by the boo-boo, don't it? hesssssssshhhhhhh hessssshhhhh hessshhhh... 'ere
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