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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:32:25 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Talking about being f*cked is simply another route of pointing towards the fact that freedom is already the case and not the product of some transformation or self getting out of jail. Instead of suggesting that one bypass the perspective that's already coloring experience as a whole, it's a way of talking directly to that structure of thought that's seeking for anything and everything to produce freedom. That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. That was an excellent bit of sanity.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:37:00 GMT -5
Okay, so we're all phucked, so we may as well play with ideas? I wouldn't say that, no. If anything, I would say, 'we're all phucked so lets leave this non-dual hall of mirrors behind and get the hell on with participating AS IF we really are separate volitional persons that want to live good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful lives. Coz here's the thing. It can't be proved one way or another that there is or isn't a separate volitional person, and more often than not, the path of least resistance does come with experiencing some level of control and power to make something happen, it does come with experiencing some level of 'me here' and 'you there', it does come with some level of experiencing being a person! So as important as realizations are in this 'apparent' process, in the end they too are just another thing to come and go. And there's the full circle personal freedom plan. You aren't phucked at all, are you? You've rationalized your way back to full out self delusion.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:39:55 GMT -5
Talking about being f*cked is simply another route of pointing towards the fact that freedom is already the case and not the product of some transformation or self getting out of jail. Instead of suggesting that one bypass the perspective that's already coloring experience as a whole, it's a way of talking directly to that structure of thought that's seeking for anything and everything to produce freedom. That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. There's no intermediate with you is there? I either get one liners or text walls! Ya know what though? I don't actually have much issue with that. Three paragraphs is a text wall?? I don't know why you don't have much issue with that. It's the opposite of everything you've been saying.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:44:24 GMT -5
That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. You seem to be describing 'realization' then, as a falling away of conclusions/attachments due to an expansion of consciousness..... an opening to seeing those previously held to conclusions for what they are...? I get that, what I'm seeing is that some seem to have a 'realization', (they see a conclusion for what it is and release it) only to glom on to yet another conclusion. It's almost as if the fire consumes and mind opens, but then in the wake of that void, mind immediately contracts back, and fills the void with something known. Yes, lots of conclusions and assumptions from the F and A camp. They don't seem willing to let them go, though.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:56:44 GMT -5
As I see it, mind refers to appearances, while Being refers to existence, meaning that which never appears. You, also, know too much, see too much, understand too much, and realize too much. Gnaw, you're just on a mission to not know anything and you figure everybody else should be playing that game along with you. I'd have thought you'd have noticed by now that it can't work. You can't unknow. The direction is always forward.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 22:58:28 GMT -5
I'd say most seekers make very clear distinctions between ideas (concepts) and experience. They'll say things like, 'I don't want to hear your ideas, I want to know what you experienced Either way, they learn too much, and too much is taught. No ideas, or communicated experiences, can help a seeker one bit. What if somebody hears that idea of yours and realizes the truth of it?
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 23:03:47 GMT -5
When a realization occurs, there is a knowing that one knows, but it is not known what one knows. When one has been kept in a dark room and one day the light suddenly comes on there is pure seeing and wordless knowing prior to naming or labeling. Realization can "in-form" instantly and wordlessly and recede as quickly as it came. What happens in Its wake is a different subject, and whether It be a glimpse or One of final liberation another, but do you not believe that one can experience and "know" without naming or labeling? Experience without naming or labeling? Of course. What is it that one "knows"? I know what you were referring to. Didn't my response seem to address it?
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 23:15:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. Well, but it's not really experienced. Rather, the minds interpretation/translation, which may also be a vision or feeling sense, is what is experienced. When a realization occurs, there is a knowing that one knows, but it is not known what one knows. Until that translation unfolds as a story in mind, there is no experience.This raises the question of whether realization may be happening and mind may not be noticing. Hencely, there is no experience to mark that timeless realization. I say clarity is always 'present' and not being noticed. In an odd way, a timeless realization cannot 'happen', it can only be noticed. What I mean is that realization is whole unto itself. It may be cosmic, or about something specific like volition, but it arrives complete with no assembly required. Incompleteness is a mind attribute; parts that need to be fit together or ideas that need to be refined. With deep love and affection for the lessons you have revealed for me, i say to you.. you are struggling far too mightily with your 'thinking'.. the sting of a wasp is an experience without a story, realizing the clarity of a still mind's awareness is an experience without a story.. it is the story that follows the experience, even when the experience is imagined.. letting go of stories leaves only experiences, imagined experiences require effort, belief.. real experiences just happen, you don't have to 'notice' them, they can't be avoided, only denied/rejected.. Realization is direct experience with what 'is'.. it is revealed into mind/being, either as a story 'about' the experience, or.. as the experience itself, echoing eternally as who/what we 'are becoming'.. we become attachments to stories, or remain present absorbing experiences and becoming what we 'are', that which 'is happening'.. Be well.. Assuming I understand what you're addressing, I'm saying that realization itself is not an experience. It's just an expanded awareness that reveals boundaries that were not seen before. There isn't some kind of experience to be had until mind becomes 'informed' of that view, and even then the experience may be quite anti-climactic. In any event, I wasn't saying anything about not being able to experience anything without a story. I was just talking about realizations and trying to disconnect them from experiences and ideas.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 30, 2013 23:35:40 GMT -5
What is it that one "knows"? One knows what is given to be known.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 1, 2013 0:08:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. With deep love and affection for the lessons you have revealed for me, i say to you.. you are struggling far too mightily with your 'thinking'.. the sting of a wasp is an experience without a story, realizing the clarity of a still mind's awareness is an experience without a story.. it is the story that follows the experience, even when the experience is imagined.. letting go of stories leaves only experiences, imagined experiences require effort, belief.. real experiences just happen, you don't have to 'notice' them, they can't be avoided, only denied/rejected.. Realization is direct experience with what 'is'.. it is revealed into mind/being, either as a story 'about' the experience, or.. as the experience itself, echoing eternally as who/what we 'are becoming'.. we become attachments to stories, or remain present absorbing experiences and becoming what we 'are', that which 'is happening'.. Be well.. Assuming I understand what you're addressing, I'm saying that realization itself is not an experience. It's just an expanded awareness that reveals boundaries that were not seen before. There isn't some kind of experience to be had until mind becomes 'informed' of that view, and even then the experience may be quite anti-climactic. In any event, I wasn't saying anything about not being able to experience anything without a story. I was just talking about realizations and trying to disconnect them from experiences and ideas. If you have to 'try' to disconnect what you think realization means from "experiences and ideas", you might want to stop 'trying' and just look at what is actually happening.. you are describing your beliefs about realizations as if those belief are true or accurate, they are just 'your' beliefs about the meanings of a word.. finding a workable consensus for meanings is preferable to insisting that any particular meaning is superior to all others.. Whether it's a 'realization', or learning, or experience, or knowledge, or beliefs, or imagination, it all plays-out in mind, and.. mind's application of it's understanding of information, regardless of the source of the information, is the interaction and influence that directly affects/effects the quality of existence, both for the individual and the collective.. Be well..
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:20:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that, no. If anything, I would say, 'we're all phucked so lets leave this non-dual hall of mirrors behind and get the hell on with participating AS IF we really are separate volitional persons that want to live good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful lives. Coz here's the thing. It can't be proved one way or another that there is or isn't a separate volitional person, and more often than not, the path of least resistance does come with experiencing some level of control and power to make something happen, it does come with experiencing some level of 'me here' and 'you there', it does come with some level of experiencing being a person! So as important as realizations are in this 'apparent' process, in the end they too are just another thing to come and go. That movement of thought that demands "proof" is the same movement which perpetuates the experience of a separate volitional person. You can very well just abandon the whole thing as unsolvable but whether or not you can see if it's true or not directly impacts the good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful life you say is important. The abundance of dry concept dissection like conversations here would make it seem otherwise but that's just part of the show. Note: seeing whether it's true or not does not mean settling on some new way of telling yourself something. Yes, there's a sense of self which never goes away and if it does it's an abnormality that results in strange dissociation and basic functioning issues. This sense isn't a problem and doesn't rely on continual reinforcement of thought patterns. What's being talked about is incredibly subtle and often can seem like a minute difference in conversation. Something that can be noticed quite quickly though is that some of the most minute subltleties can have the most profound impact on experience and the quality of life in general. I can tell you this much. I definitely 'realized' there was no 'separate volitional person', and spent months, maybe years, talking about that. Then I had another realization. And that was, that the first realization was a point of perception, and in the broadest sense, another idea. I realized that in a very subtle way, the first realization was a 'truth', and was to be released. Essentially, I saw through the first realization. And this is how it is with realizations. I still have realizations, but they are marginal because even realizations are on the surface these days, they come and go just like all things.. I don't know quite what you mean by a 'sense of self'. Can you describe what that feels like to you?
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Post by esteban on Jul 1, 2013 2:21:55 GMT -5
Either way, they learn too much, and too much is taught. No ideas, or communicated experiences, can help a seeker one bit. What if somebody hears that idea of yours and realizes the truth of it? Haha, then somebody should hit them with a broom in the forehead as quickly as possible, before that truth has a chance to set in.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:22:22 GMT -5
It includes conclusions but only in a paradoxical way, as an 'interaction of concepts' points away from 'conclusions'. My conclusion is that an interaction of concepts points toward conclusions. My point is that 'absolute subjectivity' points away from objectivity, but paradoxically we convey it seemingly objectively. Such is the paradox of pointing.
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:23:58 GMT -5
Hi, Ag Interesting, but that might be, like the demarcation point for everyone on the board--whether you think all is mind, or all is Being. Might be worth a poll, if only to satisfy my curiosity. As I see it, mind refers to appearances, while Being refers to existence, meaning that which never appears. So 'Being' and 'existence' mean exactly the same thing to you? You wouldn't say that a dog exists?
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Post by andrew on Jul 1, 2013 2:26:53 GMT -5
I agree Realization does not happen in time. It happens in the Present Moment. And I agree that thoughts about it happen in time. But would we even know Realization happened if it wasn't experienced by mind when it did? Well, but it's not really experienced. Rather, the minds interpretation/translation, which may also be a vision or feeling sense, is what is experienced. When a realization occurs, there is a knowing that one knows, but it is not known what one knows. Until that translation unfolds as a story in mind, there is no experience. This raises the question of whether realization may be happening and mind may not be noticing. Hencely, there is no experience to mark that timeless realization. I say clarity is always 'present' and not being noticed. In an odd way, a timeless realization cannot 'happen', it can only be noticed. That sounds odd because its wrong. Realizations are subjective and empty, just like everything else and every other idea. 'Its all imaginary' and realizations are not an exception to that. You do see that you are saying 'its all imaginary, except realizations' don't you?
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