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Post by Beingist on Jun 30, 2013 15:22:31 GMT -5
The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 15:27:24 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.'
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 15:30:03 GMT -5
Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.' Yep, well said.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 30, 2013 15:30:23 GMT -5
Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.' I see. Well, I'm glad we've got a translator for Andrewese.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 15:35:57 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? As Fig said, there just ain't no place to find an actual solid foundation. Not outside, not inside, not in our minds, not in Being, not in realization, not in the world, not in Consciousness, not in self or Self, not in imagination, not in something that cannot be named. 'Nowhere to run to' (good song that)
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Post by Beingist on Jun 30, 2013 15:37:47 GMT -5
Okay, but are you saying here that A's 'phucked', whoever listens to A is 'phucked', or we're all 'phucked', so we may as well all 'play at ideas'? As Fig said, there just ain't no place to find an actual solid foundation. Not outside, not inside, not in our minds, not in Being, not in realization, not in the world, not in Consciousness, not in self or Self, not in imagination, not in something that cannot be named. 'Nowhere to run to' (good song that) Okay, so we're all phucked, so we may as well play with ideas?
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 15:47:26 GMT -5
The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Talking about being f*cked is simply another route of pointing towards the fact that freedom is already the case and not the product of some transformation or self getting out of jail. Instead of suggesting that one bypass the perspective that's already coloring experience as a whole, it's a way of talking directly to that structure of thought that's seeking for anything and everything to produce freedom. That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 16:19:52 GMT -5
As Fig said, there just ain't no place to find an actual solid foundation. Not outside, not inside, not in our minds, not in Being, not in realization, not in the world, not in Consciousness, not in self or Self, not in imagination, not in something that cannot be named. 'Nowhere to run to' (good song that) Okay, so we're all phucked, so we may as well play with ideas? I wouldn't say that, no. If anything, I would say, 'we're all phucked so lets leave this non-dual hall of mirrors behind and get the hell on with participating AS IF we really are separate volitional persons that want to live good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful lives. Coz here's the thing. It can't be proved one way or another that there is or isn't a separate volitional person, and more often than not, the path of least resistance does come with experiencing some level of control and power to make something happen, it does come with experiencing some level of 'me here' and 'you there', it does come with some level of experiencing being a person! So as important as realizations are in this 'apparent' process, in the end they too are just another thing to come and go.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 16:22:03 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Talking about being f*cked is simply another route of pointing towards the fact that freedom is already the case and not the product of some transformation or self getting out of jail. Instead of suggesting that one bypass the perspective that's already coloring experience as a whole, it's a way of talking directly to that structure of thought that's seeking for anything and everything to produce freedom. That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. There's no intermediate with you is there? I either get one liners or text walls! Ya know what though? I don't actually have much issue with that.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 16:31:26 GMT -5
I'm saying in terms of an actual foundation or place to hang our hat, we're ALL phucked. There is none other than the one's we create through attaching to ideas. I'm not a huge fan of the word 'phucked' though or 'f*ucked' for that matter, hehe.... as it makes it sound as though something's amiss.....we're far more 'phucked' as i see it, when we're mired in need for a sense of foundation than when we release that need and let go of all sense of having a foundation. All depends on the vantage point though. If we're coming from a place of 'needing' to hang onto something 'solid'...then the idea of no actual foundation will look very much like being 'phucked.' I see. Well, I'm glad we've got a translator for Andrewese. Me too!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 16:58:04 GMT -5
That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. You seem to be describing 'realization' then, as a falling away of conclusions/attachments due to an expansion of consciousness..... an opening to seeing those previously held to conclusions for what they are...? I get that, what I'm seeing is that some seem to have a 'realization', (they see a conclusion for what it is and release it) only to glom on to yet another conclusion. It's almost as if the fire consumes and mind opens, but then in the wake of that void, mind immediately contracts back, and fills the void with something known.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 17:45:41 GMT -5
Could another way of saying that be that you come to these conversations with an agenda? Yes I have an agenda when I write a message, but I respond to each message as it comes up, so the agenda changes. I see. Appreciate the honesty again.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 18:09:57 GMT -5
Okay, so we're all phucked, so we may as well play with ideas? I wouldn't say that, no. If anything, I would say, 'we're all phucked so lets leave this non-dual hall of mirrors behind and get the hell on with participating AS IF we really are separate volitional persons that want to live good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful lives. Coz here's the thing. It can't be proved one way or another that there is or isn't a separate volitional person, and more often than not, the path of least resistance does come with experiencing some level of control and power to make something happen, it does come with experiencing some level of 'me here' and 'you there', it does come with some level of experiencing being a person! So as important as realizations are in this 'apparent' process, in the end they too are just another thing to come and go. That movement of thought that demands "proof" is the same movement which perpetuates the experience of a separate volitional person. You can very well just abandon the whole thing as unsolvable but whether or not you can see if it's true or not directly impacts the good, happy, healthy, loving, joyful life you say is important. The abundance of dry concept dissection like conversations here would make it seem otherwise but that's just part of the show. Note: seeing whether it's true or not does not mean settling on some new way of telling yourself something. Yes, there's a sense of self which never goes away and if it does it's an abnormality that results in strange dissociation and basic functioning issues. This sense isn't a problem and doesn't rely on continual reinforcement of thought patterns. What's being talked about is incredibly subtle and often can seem like a minute difference in conversation. Something that can be noticed quite quickly though is that some of the most minute subltleties can have the most profound impact on experience and the quality of life in general.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 18:11:32 GMT -5
Talking about being f*cked is simply another route of pointing towards the fact that freedom is already the case and not the product of some transformation or self getting out of jail. Instead of suggesting that one bypass the perspective that's already coloring experience as a whole, it's a way of talking directly to that structure of thought that's seeking for anything and everything to produce freedom. That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. There's no intermediate with you is there? I either get one liners or text walls! Ya know what though? I don't actually have much issue with that. Fantastic. I'll leave the merry go round to you and Enigma then.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 18:14:01 GMT -5
That perspective is completely screwed. It is inherently distorting and the product of that distortion is the continuous experience of constriction. From which the only way out is to "realize" what could be called nothing more than an innocent mistake of perception. The personal perspective can not conclude its way out of the mess it has created and so it requires seeing the larger picture until there is sufficient clarity that the distortion dissolves back from whence it came. Nothing is left in the wake of this dissolution and yet the dissolution can not come as a result of a process of conclusion. To talk about realization being "outside of mind" is to point away from the conclusion process. To point away from looking through thought so that one may look at thought. If you're a literal word smith, you'll run away with this and say it creates some special thing that's separate from thought but all you would be revealing is the limitation of language. Realization IS necessary as contrasted against belief and conclusion. It is the opposite of those two. Mind grows like a forest creating a vast landscape of conclusions. Realization is nothing more than the fire that consumes them. Mind is not destroyed but rather open to new growth that does not spring forth from ignorance. You seem to be describing 'realization' then, as a falling away of conclusions/attachments due to an expansion of consciousness..... an opening to seeing those previously held to conclusions for what they are...? I get that, what I'm seeing is that some seem to have a 'realization', (they see a conclusion for what it is and release it) only to glom on to yet another conclusion. It's almost as if the fire consumes and mind opens, but then in the wake of that void, mind immediately contracts back, and fills the void with something known. Sure, it's entirely possible.
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