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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 14:35:33 GMT -5
Oh, I agree there is the experience of ideas being absent. To clarify, what I have been talking about is an expanded definition of 'ideas', which includes more than what we normally take to be 'ideas'. I have been suggesting that everything experienced/perceived is an idea, though we could swap that word for 'imaginary'. And whether it is 'idea' or 'imaginary' (and those words are inadequate really), the point is really to convey that anything experienced/perceived is subjective and empty. why redefine the word "idea"? Experience is illusory. Holding onto the experience and resisting it's change creates attachment and suffering. There's no need to expand the meaning of the word "idea" to talk about the inherent illusory nature of experience. The reason you sound so confusing is because your dogs are cats, your cats are birds, your birds are fleas and your fleas are dogs. I have expanded it for a few reasons, one of them has been to neutralize a preference often given to sense perceptions over rational thought, to neutralize a preference given to reality over imagination, to neutralize a preference given to truth over falsity, to neutralize a preference for seeing over thinking, to neutralize a preference for anything that we can possibly come up with. In doing so, I couldn't possibly point away from ideation anymore than I am. Another reason I have expanded it is to show that realizations are not some special prior thing. They happen as part of the world, as part of experiencing, as part of existing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 14:36:56 GMT -5
You mean you cannot imagine a realization being anything but an idea. That is what I am getting from Andrew, not making a distinction between the concept and the experience behind the concept. What I see Andrew doing is pointing out that some use a 'realization' to create a foundation or a 'place to hang their hat.' I see E doing this with his 'realization' of 'Oneness is true, separation is false'. In calling this a realization, (And revering a realization as a special kind of illumination that he regards to be different from all other ideas, as it is deemed to have occurred outside of mind), it is not subject to questioning, as are other mere ideas, and thus, it serves as a place for him to anchor onto....to grasp hold of as a foundation. Andrew is saying that even a realization can be and (if we value freedom) should be, subject to questioning and in seeing this, there is no longer any foundational 'truth' to hang our hat upon....to attach to.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 14:37:20 GMT -5
Its obvious that you have attached to assumptions by linking them to something more solid than an assumption. 'Its all imaginary. Except realizations'. Hehe. ' Everything is a play of ideas' points away from ideation but you can't see that. There's your assumption again you just can't let go of. The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 14:38:01 GMT -5
In order to settle 'clackety clack', you have to expand your definition of 'ideas' temporarily. If you are not willing to do that, that's fine, then the only other thing I could offer you is the 'its all imagined' pointer. I'm not saying we are 'supposed' to see through the seemingly concrete nature of things, but I am assuming that that is part of what this forum is all about. Yes, that's basically what I see you doing. You're just stretching your conceptual box as wide as you can so everything looks equal to you. Basically, yes. And there has been a reason I have done that in this conversation.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 14:39:17 GMT -5
That is what I am getting from Andrew, not making a distinction between the concept and the experience behind the concept. What I see Andrew doing is pointing out that some use a 'realization' to create a foundation or a 'place to hang their hat.' I see E doing this with his 'realization' of 'Oneness is true, separation is false'. In calling this a realization, (And revering a realization as a special kind of illumination that he regards to be different from all other ideas, as it is deemed to have occurred outside of mind), it is not subject to questioning, as are other mere ideas, and thus, it serves as a place for him to anchor onto....to grasp hold of as a foundation. Andrew is saying that even a realization can be and (if we value freedom) should be, subject to questioning and in seeing this, there is no longer any foundational 'truth' to hang our hat upon....to attach to. Exactly.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 14:40:41 GMT -5
There's your assumption again you just can't let go of. The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. Hehe. I would say he's already with me. And he's got a big gnarly grin.
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 14:46:27 GMT -5
Once we have expanded our definition of 'ideas' to encompass everything, it can be seen that 'everything' is subjective and therefore empty. Thoughts in our heads are as empty as 'clackety clack' are as empty as a realization...its all empty. Okay, clackety-clack still but an empty idea. I'm with you so far. (Bear in mind I don't necessarily agree. I'm just being flexible so as to understand what you're saying). This actually reminds me of a philosophical (I mean, like, with Philosophy majors and such) discussion I once had, where the subject was, 'does essence precede existence, or does existence precede essence?'. I am in the camp of the former. That said, if you switch the terms 'Being' and 'existence' around as I have done in your quote above, I can agree with you. Otherwise, it just makes no sense to me. Mind exists. Ideas happen within mind, and if you want to say that existence happens within mind, I'm okay with that. But, Being (I mean Being [or TWCBN], not the concept of being) is not mind. Nope. I don't buy that one for a second. 'I am' is a concept within mind, and so, yes, I agree that it is illusory, and that it, along with all other ideas must be transcended (or 'let go' if you will). What is beyond that, I simply cannot say. But, I am is not Being. And since I'm still fuzzy on the 'Brahman' thing, I can't respond to that. It's actually a perfect example of what I mean by "If I tell it to myself this way will it satisfy/work/bring peace/ cause a realization/ make me happy etc. etc."
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 14:52:33 GMT -5
Hmm. I'm now beginning to see E's assertion that you have never had a realization. This is all just ... swimming in mind. Mental water polo. Need to get beyond mind, A. I felt you would struggle with what I said there. If you read again what I said, you will see that I am pointing away from all ideation. That includes 'Being'. That sounds a bit (gasp)... arrogant.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 15:07:10 GMT -5
There's your assumption again you just can't let go of. The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.'
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Post by silence on Jun 30, 2013 15:11:56 GMT -5
Yes, that's basically what I see you doing. You're just stretching your conceptual box as wide as you can so everything looks equal to you. Basically, yes. And there has been a reason I have done that in this conversation. Could another way of saying that be that you come to these conversations with an agenda?
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 15:13:21 GMT -5
The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Yes! In fact, I nearly said the same thing earlier. This clip sprang to mind at the time, and I thought about putting it up but...decided against it.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 15:14:58 GMT -5
Basically, yes. And there has been a reason I have done that in this conversation. Could another way of saying that be that you come to these conversations with an agenda? Yes I have an agenda when I write a message, but I respond to each message as it comes up, so the agenda changes.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 30, 2013 15:14:59 GMT -5
The ghost of Niz is currently boarding a plane from India to England to make a visit to our dear friend Andrew. What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Facinating. But just to be fair, being "phucked" was an expression I used in my text wall. Silence was responding to and elaborating on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 15:20:40 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Yes! In fact, I nearly said the same thing earlier. This clip sprang to mind at the time, and I thought about putting it up but...decided against it. perfect!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 15:22:00 GMT -5
What I hear Andrew saying Silence, in my estimation is really pretty much on par with what you said a ways back about accepting the fact that 'we're f*cked.' Those who are trying to cling to 'a realization' as something occurring outside of mind, and therefore, as being 'untouchable' in terms of questioning, are trying vehemently to find a way out of 'being f*cked.' I see your term, 'being f*cked' to be the equivalent of Andrew's 'without a foundation...without a place to hang your hat.' Facinating. But just to be fair, being "phucked" was an expression I used in my text wall. Silence was responding to and elaborating on that. Ah...I see. I'm loving the 'ph' version......perfectly phucked. Has a nice ring to it, hey?
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