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Post by laughter on Jun 30, 2013 9:48:35 GMT -5
yes. stop. there. Nothing said, thought, reasoned, synthesized, modified, codified or selectified beyond this is sensical, useful, nobel or either true or false. The sentence embodies a paradox and thinking beyond it is to gun the engine of your car after you've driven off of a cliff. Yes. I'm tempted to say more.....but in this instance....I think I will hold that temptation on ice. Ha! ... just found a poem 'bout apples and bites a few secs ago!
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:49:10 GMT -5
Hehehe. No, it can be realized that there is no free will, it can be realized that there is no separation, it can be realized that all is one, it can be realized that what we are is not just a bodymind....the list goes on and on. T he question of free will apparently doesn't arise for you because you have tied your assumptions to something far more concrete and solid than other assumptions.Didn't you promise to let go of that assumption just a day ago? Hard to let go, eh? I did let it go, but again you demonstrate clearly that you think realizations are something more than they are, that they are somehow prior to mind, that they are unquestionable.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:49:50 GMT -5
The moment pointing happens, an idea is created. Simple as. Ironically, its you there that is creating something more solid here than just another idea. Stop licking the pointer. Turn your head and look where the pointer is pointing. That's the whole point. Your saliva sample analysis after the pointer licking is a distraction. The moment you point is the moment you create an idea. Its all a play of ideas hehe.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:51:58 GMT -5
The idea of 'ineffability' is no problem for me. Its all empty, even the idea of 'empty'. To say that all pointing is minding, is a pointer in itself. I speak with certainty here and say that you have taken the pointer and created something more out of it i.e. a fixed boundary between minding and 'truthing'. It obviously is a problem for you since you can't keep your mouth shut.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 30, 2013 9:52:07 GMT -5
Stop licking the pointer. Turn your head and look where the pointer is pointing. That's the whole point. Your saliva sample analysis after the pointer licking is a distraction. The moment you point is the moment you create an idea. Its all a play of ideas hehe. Just look into the direction the pointer is pointing and see what happens instead of not looking and assuming what happens, hehe. But you would have to let go of your most cherished assumption there. Dunno if that's possible.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:54:52 GMT -5
Yes, its mind questioning mind. What is accomplished is a realization of course! Realizations change things. That's why what you call 'realizations' are only conclusions. No, I am saying a realization is an idea. That's what I have said from the start. When it has been seen that everything is a play of ideas, there is no room for conclusions.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:55:27 GMT -5
Its all a concept, its all imaginary, its all 'word of God', its all an idea. Same pointer. I see that you quite desperately want your realizations to be something substantial, but they are just as empty as everything else It's a pointer. Stop licking the pointer as if it were something substantial and just turn your head into the direction it is pointing and then forgetaboutit. No one needs your saliva sample analysis of that pointer. You are pointing to an idea.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:56:54 GMT -5
Hehehe. 'A play of ideas' by definition, points away from conclusions. A conclusion is not an idea at play! So it's not ALL a play of ideas after all? Who knew!? A 'conclusion' is an idea that has been fixed objectively. That's why it is not possible for me to have 'concluded'. That's also why your realizations are conclusions.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 9:58:50 GMT -5
There is an obvious difference between a rational and non rational thought. Its your cop out to suggest that realizations are something more than a non rational thought.That's only your assumption. What would that be, 'more than non-rational thought'? Is that your latest stunt? Both Enigma and you have been clearly saying that realizations are not mind i.e. ''its all imaginary. Except realizations''.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 10:00:18 GMT -5
If it's 'still an idea', then why can't it be talked about? Why can only be said what it not is instead of what it is? If it would just be an idea it could be described thoroughly and accurately. But it can't be described thoroughly and accurately. Because it's not 'just an idea'. Realizations happen, what that means is that they are ideas. When we say 'it can't be talked about', we are describing the nature of that idea. The nature of all ideas is that they can be talked about.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 10:00:39 GMT -5
To repeat myself, assumptions are held when tied to something more concrete than other assumptions i.e. conclusions or 'realizations'. A great irony here is that you guys accuse me of turning realizations into conclusions, when you have done that very thing by making them into something fixed, timeless, other than imaginary, other than conceptual. That's a false assumption. You are accused of not being able to tell a realization apart from a conclusion because you never had a realization but only conclusions, hehe. And the more you keep talking the more you prove our point. I have clearly stated the difference between a realization and a conclusion. A conclusion is an idea that has been fixed objectively. It happens in the rational thinking mind. A realization happens in the non-rational thinking mind. Its still time/space bound. Its still ideation/imagination. Its still Mind.
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2013 10:02:07 GMT -5
Because it's not an idea. That is a basis in itself. That's what you asked for.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 10:02:49 GMT -5
Yes, but a new experience, a new perception, a new belief can be attached to. The point was that something ceased to exist. Without being immediately replaced by something else. Why is this so hard to grasp? Maybe that doesn't fit into your idea play ontology. I have no issue with the idea that realizations can dissolve particular attachments, but the reason that you and Enigma and many others on the spiritual path are still deeply attached, is because of what happens following a realization. At the core, the need to attach has not been released.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 10:04:45 GMT -5
A conclusion already IS an attachment. That's why realizations can, and do. create new ones. I'm not saying a realization is an attachment in itself, I am saying that attachments follow realizations. That's why there are so many spiritual personas, spiritual 'identities' attached to. Its absurd to say that all these spiritual people have never had realizations, that they have only ever 'concluded'. You have to say that though I guess. That's why you are so attached, hehe. Your head is full of conclusions and assumptions. You still haven't realized that ''everything is a play of ideas'' i.e. that no idea is necessarily true or false. I don't see you realizing that anytime soon either.
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Post by andrew on Jun 30, 2013 10:05:49 GMT -5
::facepalm:: I have openly said that it is an assumption. That's the point! No. The point is that you can't let go of that assumption, that you are attached to certain assumptions. Hehehe. Assumptions are attached to when they are made into conclusions. I am quite directly pointing away from conclusions.
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