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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:00:36 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual' There's really no way to have a conversation with you about this stuff. We are at the wasting valuable bandwidth stage again.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:01:10 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual', its just a type of 'conceptual'. Its just not rational thought. Its still mind/Mind. Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe. Yes. I'm done, too. Hehe. I suggest Andy sends us a memo when he's finally dropped his cherished assumption and then we can have another try.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 23:02:10 GMT -5
Non-conceptual is still 'mind'. It can be realized that there is no free will. It can be realized that there is no person. It can be realized that there is no separation. It can be realized that the issue of purpose is misconceived. All non-conceptual realizations, all conceptually stated. And notice this. You still have an assumed basis for the realization. It can only be concluded that there is no free will. 'Non-conceptual' is a pointer. It's not that it's realized that there is no free will. The question of free will just won't arise anymore which means that is the end of free will discussions and free will conclusions. edit: which means 'neither free will nor no free will' is also a conclusion The realization is that the whole issue is misconceived.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:03:28 GMT -5
No 'seeing' takes time, every seeing happens instantly and what is seen is seen whole and complete all at once. So.... 'its all imaginary, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all made up, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all dream stuff except realizations'. Come on E, get over it. Realizations are imagination, all made up, and all dream stuff. If everything else is of course. The only thing that can be imaginary is ideas. Realization is not the realization of ideas. It's the 'seeing through' of those ideas. If realization were an idea, then it could be taught. And there would be a recipe with guaranteed results!
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:04:34 GMT -5
The only thing that can be imaginary is ideas. Realization is not the realization of ideas. It's the 'seeing through' of those ideas. If realization were an idea, then it could be taught. What you call 'seeing through ideas' happens as part of, or within, ideas. Its. all. just. ideas. Empty ones. Sorry dude. * contains broken record style fundamentalism *
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 23:06:01 GMT -5
This is an example of where you lose me, Andrew, and the rest of your conversation with anyone turns out to be just entertainment. 'all is just a play of ideas' = 'all is just entertainment' Yeah, I think he's hearing Niz say 'You're free to play with ideas all you want and make a confusing mess out of everything.'
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:07:28 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. Farmer said "something was there and it's gone". What doesn't exist can't be attached to.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:09:13 GMT -5
That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home.***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** That can be attached to. Most likely usually is. 'Brahman'. * facepalm * Well, Mr Extra-Literal, be prepared to see talks 'about you' rather than 'with you' from now on.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:11:31 GMT -5
yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options. No. Conclusions remove attachments and immediately create new ones. That's how identity poker works. Lots of options.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:12:49 GMT -5
Moved to point out an irony here. I am suggesting that anything known, seen, experienced, observed, felt, sensed, realized, intuited (the list goes on)...is an idea. Doesn't matter if it is 'indirectly' or 'directly' experienced, its still an idea.This is total neutralization of ideas. I can't see how its possible to point away from ideas and mind any more than I am doing. I am not creating ANY notion of one idea being better than another, more preferable than another, more true than another. The irony is that some people here often claim to be pointing away from ideas/mind, and yet are actually pointing to one idea being better/more preferable than another. And there is nothing wrong with that, there are many times when I am happy to say that one idea is better than another, but its best to do it honestly. Pointing away from ideation by saying that something has to be realized, or known, or that one thing is true and another false, or that one idea is actual and another imaginary....is not pointing away from mind/ideation because it is saying one idea is preferable to another. I am saying all ideas are empty. Whether its something known, seen, experienced, witnessed, realized....its all empty. Why are ideas empty? Because they are subjective. Even when something seems self-evident. Even when something seems like it can't be questioned. Its all subjective (even this). I'd say it matters very much that you finally let go of that assumption.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 23:14:05 GMT -5
Is it like a 'senor moment'?? Is that the mexican version of a senior moment? Hehe. Si.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 23:18:08 GMT -5
The only thing that can be imaginary is ideas. Realization is not the realization of ideas. It's the 'seeing through' of those ideas. If realization were an idea, then it could be taught. And there would be a recipe with guaranteed results! Maybe that's what he's cooking up.
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Post by silence on Jun 29, 2013 23:27:53 GMT -5
yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options. Spiritual identities don't form from realizations. They form from fitting on belief systems and trying to force realizations. It's like an endless version of "If I say it this way to myself, will do that the trick!?" How about this way? In the context of spirituality, all we're talking about is the cessation of looking to thought for confirmation about oneself, God, life in general. The cessation of looking to thought in smaller contexts is not necessary and absurd. What this basically means is that realization is just certain thought patterns ceasing to have any sort of existence beyond a memory that may or may not be accessible. Thought patterns about the nature of reality don't usually stop on their own and so it's just seeing the absurdity of the thought(s). There's nothing to attach to there anymore than you're feeling attached to thinking about elephants sky diving right now. The only part that I would agree with you on is that the experience that results from the cessation of certain thoughts may be intensely pleasurable and this can certainly become an object of desire to repeat. The futility of this though is incredibly difficult to not notice for any long length of time. In other words, it's next to impossible to remain in denial about whether you caused the experience and whether you can do it again whenever you want.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:28:59 GMT -5
No, I'm not. Spiritual forums are chock full of people with attachments following realizations. Not to mention those with attachments to stories about realizations.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 23:31:41 GMT -5
This is also why Niz says that 'I am' is an idea. 'I am' can be seen through. It has no foundation as much as it can seem as if it does. And that's why you question your existence per se, because Niz said 'I am' is an idea? That's loco. Leave those books alone!
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