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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:19:41 GMT -5
I assume he means attached to the idea that mind forms as an interpretation of the realization, rather than attached to the idea of realizing, but if this is happening, one has given authority to the mind to take over the realization and attach to the concept about the realization. A realization, as such, never becomes a concept or a memory. It is the memory of the realization that is sometimes held on to. Someone who has seen through an abusive relationship might become an advocate for abused women, perhaps even doing good things, but remaining stunted in Self unfoldment as a result of the new identity. Someone who has had a glimpse of Self in a sudden ah-ha moment can cling to that experience and make an identity of it by becoming a teacher or guru. Some who have seen other realities, such as in near death experiences, can become bound up in an identity formed of it. Perhaps becoming a best selling author and popular lecturer. People stunt themselves all the time by clinging to realizations which that are not meant to be clung to. Realization is not experience and not concept. If experiences and concepts are being attached to, then that's what it is.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:21:56 GMT -5
I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. We call it Andrewspeak.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 19:23:30 GMT -5
Okay, that's my response. Well, using the idea of 'idea' to describe anything perceived is a way of talking about the subjective and empty nature of anything sensed, known, felt, smelt, tasted, realized, intuited, experienced etc. Talking about sensory perceptions in terms of being 'ideas' can a) reveal the subjective/empty nature of sensory perceptions, and b) totally flatten/neutralize the playing field. Using the idea of 'ideas' in this way can help us to see through the seemingly concrete nature of things. That's all good and well, A, but it still doesn't explain how clackety-clack on a keyboard is an idea. Get me to that point, and I make enough sense out of the rest of what you're saying to respond. If we are going to point away from mind/ideation, then setting one kind of perception up as preferable to another is not always useful. I can see the value in some situations in pointing to sensory perceptions...nevertheless, its all subjective, its all Mind, its all empty. And those are all just pointers. Um. Okay, now I don't get your 'one kind of perception over another'. You mean, there are multiple perceptions? Multiple perspectives, I can see, but ... multiple perceptions? Sorry, A, but this conversation is starting to get comical to me, and I'm getting closer to going Don Rickles on you. Of course 'I am' is an idea, and even Niz says you gotta get past it. But, 'I am' isn't clackety-clack on the keyboard. You need to get me to the point of understanding that clackety-clack is an idea. If you can't, I'm gonna hafta hop into E's Mustang, which is about pull a Thelma and Louise off Highway 1.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:23:54 GMT -5
That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** obviously a realization (or three) does not a liberation make. and obviously there's nothing I can do to hasten the Thelma and Louise finale. hehe just put the top down and enjoy the ride I guess. ;-) You might be able to put the petal to the metal.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 19:24:16 GMT -5
A non-conceptual realization is a logical impossibility, just like the idea that everything comes from nothing(Which it does by the way). First we have to define non-conceptual. Obviously it's that which isn't conceptual. So what 'is' that which isn't conceptual, well if it was 'something' than it wouldn't be non-conceptual. So to me non-conceptual is that which isn't 'known', or that which is Nothing, or that which is Everything, depending on how we want to talk 'about' it. It's not so much that mind is a process of realization so much as mind is the 'creator' of the conceptual. The mind literally 'creates' apples and realizations out of nothing, out of everything, out of the non-conceptual. What the mind creates as the concept of an apple or a realization, is actually everything except an apple or a realization. It is nothing and it is everything being reduced to a concept of the mind. It is the mind creating apples and realizations out of nothing, or everything, or the non-conceptual. Which is a logical impossibility. Huh? Well said, E!
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:28:05 GMT -5
That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** Flooring it as you approach the cliff?? Were you part of the suicide forum that one of the contributors was talking about? It's an oxymoron that your soberness would engage in an irrational joy ride to the bottom of a cliff... It's an ambiguous paradoxicality!
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 29, 2013 19:32:40 GMT -5
It is the memory of the realization that is sometimes held on to. Someone who has seen through an abusive relationship might become an advocate for abused women, perhaps even doing good things, but remaining stunted in Self unfoldment as a result of the new identity. Someone who has had a glimpse of Self in a sudden ah-ha moment can cling to that experience and make an identity of it by becoming a teacher or guru. Some who have seen other realities, such as in near death experiences, can become bound up in an identity formed of it. Perhaps becoming a best selling author and popular lecturer. People stunt themselves all the time by clinging to realizations which that are not meant to be clung to. Realization is not experience and not concept. If experiences and concepts are being attached to, then that's what it is. What would you call it when a man who has been looking for his glasses everywhere while they were already on his nose suddenly realizes that what he had been looking for were the very thing he was looking through all along?
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 19:38:50 GMT -5
Well, using the idea of 'idea' to describe anything perceived is a way of talking about the subjective and empty nature of anything sensed, known, felt, smelt, tasted, realized, intuited, experienced etc. Talking about sensory perceptions in terms of being 'ideas' can a) reveal the subjective/empty nature of sensory perceptions, and b) totally flatten/neutralize the playing field. Using the idea of 'ideas' in this way can help us to see through the seemingly concrete nature of things. That's all good and well, A, but it still doesn't explain how clackety-clack on a keyboard is an idea. Get me to that point, and I make enough sense out of the rest of what you're saying to respond. If we are going to point away from mind/ideation, then setting one kind of perception up as preferable to another is not always useful. I can see the value in some situations in pointing to sensory perceptions...nevertheless, its all subjective, its all Mind, its all empty. And those are all just pointers. Um. Okay, now I don't get your 'one kind of perception over another'. You mean, there are multiple perceptions? Multiple perspectives, I can see, but ... multiple perceptions? Sorry, A, but this conversation is starting to get comical to me, and I'm getting closer to going Don Rickles on you. Of course 'I am' is an idea, and even Niz says you gotta get past it. But, 'I am' isn't clackety-clack on the keyboard. You need to get me to the point of understanding that clackety-clack is an idea. If you can't, I'm gonna hafta hop into E's Mustang, which is about pull a Thelma and Louise off Highway 1. What I am suggesting, for the purpose of seeing through the seemingly concrete nature of things (and by that, I mean anything perceived, experienced, known, sensed, intuited, realized etc....'the inner and outer world' in other words), is to temporarily expand your definition of 'ideas' to the one I am proposing. Once this is done, clackety clack is an idea. The sense of self is an idea. Moreover, the sense of beingness is an idea. A thought is an idea. Its all an idea, which means its all subjective, its all empty, its all see through. 'The world', experienced both internally and externally, is now absent of any concreteness, any foundation. And to repeat Niz (are you counting Silence?), ''everything is a play of ideas''. Now, you don't have to expand your definition. In which case, E's pointer 'its all imaginary' might come in useful, though I am not proposing an imaginer, and neither am I excluding realizations from the imaginary. Equally, 'its all Mind' might be a good pointer. Just a pointer though. And 'its all unknown' perhaps.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:43:51 GMT -5
Well said, E! I thought it deserved my best effort. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:45:27 GMT -5
Realization is not experience and not concept. If experiences and concepts are being attached to, then that's what it is. What would you call it when a man who has been looking for his glasses everywhere while they were already on his nose suddenly realizes that what he had been looking for were the very thing he was looking through all along? I'd call it the wrong context for this discussion.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 29, 2013 19:47:02 GMT -5
What would you call it when a man who has been looking for his glasses everywhere while they were already on his nose suddenly realizes that what he had been looking for were the very thing he was looking through all along? I'd call it the wrong context for this discussion. How so?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 20:02:00 GMT -5
A non-conceptual realization is a logical impossibility, just like the idea that everything comes from nothing(Which it does by the way). First we have to define non-conceptual. Obviously it's that which isn't conceptual. So what 'is' that which isn't conceptual, well if it was 'something' than it wouldn't be non-conceptual. So to me non-conceptual is that which isn't 'known', or that which is Nothing, or that which is Everything, depending on how we want to talk 'about' it. It's not so much that mind is a process of realization so much as mind is the 'creator' of the conceptual. The mind literally 'creates' apples and realizations out of nothing, out of everything, out of the non-conceptual. What the mind creates as the concept of an apple or a realization, is actually everything except an apple or a realization. It is nothing and it is everything being reduced to a concept of the mind. It is the mind creating apples and realizations out of nothing, or everything, or the non-conceptual. Which is a logical impossibility. Huh? It's okay, because that's why understanding and intellectualism isn't "going to be of much help when the one apparently seeking can't possibly be interested in finding out the truth it's ostensibly seeking".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 20:07:59 GMT -5
Flooring it as you approach the cliff?? Were you part of the suicide forum that one of the contributors was talking about? It's an oxymoron that your soberness would engage in an irrational joy ride to the bottom of a cliff... It's an ambiguous paradoxicality! Yes, and it's also the last desire to be let go of...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 20:13:58 GMT -5
Flooring it as you approach the cliff?? Were you part of the suicide forum that one of the contributors was talking about? It's an oxymoron that your soberness would engage in an irrational joy ride to the bottom of a cliff... It's an ambiguous paradoxicality! Whatever it is I hope you have extra large air bags...
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Post by silver on Jun 29, 2013 20:15:54 GMT -5
It's an ambiguous paradoxicality! Whatever it is I hope you have extra large air bags... Yeah, just in case you change your mind on the way dooowwwwwnnn!
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