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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 17:45:50 GMT -5
That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** obviously a realization (or three) does not a liberation make. and obviously there's nothing I can do to hasten the Thelma and Louise finale. hehe just put the top down and enjoy the ride I guess. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 17:48:05 GMT -5
I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. Why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? The same reason that realization, understanding and knowledge are of little use... "Because the one apparently seeking can't possibly be interested in finding out the truth it's ostensibly seeking".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 17:52:03 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** Flooring it as you approach the cliff?? Were you part of the suicide forum that one of the contributors was talking about? It's an oxymoron that your soberness would engage in an irrational joy ride to the bottom of a cliff...
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 18:03:17 GMT -5
I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 18:05:25 GMT -5
yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments. Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options. you're wrong
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 18:07:39 GMT -5
Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options. you're wrong LOL... don't beat around the bush, farmer, what are you trying to say?
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 18:15:58 GMT -5
Moved to point out an irony here.
I am suggesting that anything known, seen, experienced, observed, felt, sensed, realized, intuited (the list goes on)...is an idea. Doesn't matter if it is 'indirectly' or 'directly' experienced, its still an idea.
This is total neutralization of ideas. I can't see how its possible to point away from ideas and mind any more than I am doing. I am not creating ANY notion of one idea being better than another, more preferable than another, more true than another.
The irony is that some people here often claim to be pointing away from ideas/mind, and yet are actually pointing to one idea being better/more preferable than another. And there is nothing wrong with that, there are many times when I am happy to say that one idea is better than another, but its best to do it honestly. Pointing away from ideation by saying that something has to be realized, or known, or that one thing is true and another false, or that one idea is actual and another imaginary....is not pointing away from mind/ideation because it is saying one idea is preferable to another. I am saying all ideas are empty. Whether its something known, seen, experienced, witnessed, realized....its all empty.
Why are ideas empty? Because they are subjective. Even when something seems self-evident. Even when something seems like it can't be questioned. Its all subjective (even this).
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 18:17:01 GMT -5
Realizations remove attachments and can create new ones. Its how spiritual identities and personas are formed. Its how people identify with abstract ideas of what they are. Certain states can be attached to following a realization. Lots of options. you're wrong No, I'm not. Spiritual forums are chock full of people with attachments following realizations.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 18:35:18 GMT -5
OOO, I can respond to this one! (It doesn't sound like Life on Planet Andrewpia)-- Moved to point out an irony here. I am suggesting that anything known, seen, experienced, observed, felt, sensed, realized, intuited (the list goes on)...is an idea. Doesn't matter if it is 'indirectly' or 'directly' experienced, its still an idea. Sorry, A, but as my fingers push buttons on this here keyboard, they sure don't feel like idea to me. It's. Just. Clacketyclack. on. a. keyboard. The aroma of carne asada on the barbecue; the sound of the music that fills the room; all these experiences, are not ideas to me. Qualia, perhaps, but not ideas. Now, after the fact, I can understand it being an idea--a memory in my head, an image in yours, or whatever, but in the moment that things are happening in the physical dimension, no, sorry, not ideas to me. Can't make any sense outta that one. This is total neutralization of ideas. I can't see how its possible to point away from ideas and mind any more than I am doing. I am not creating ANY notion of one idea being better than another, more preferable than another, more true than another. Well, I'd agree with you, here, but you really haven't 'neutralized' anything, because ideas are still just ideas to me. You haven't convinced me that direct experience is just an idea. The irony is that some people here often claim to be pointing away from ideas/mind, and yet are actually pointing to one idea being better/more preferable than another. And there is nothing wrong with that, there are many times when I am happy to say that one idea is better than another, but its best to do it honestly. Pointing away from ideation by saying that something has to be realized, or known, or that one thing is true and another false, or that one idea is actual and another imaginary....is not pointing away from mind/ideation because it is saying one idea is preferable to another. I am saying all ideas are empty. Whether its something known, seen, experienced, witnessed, realized....its all empty. Why are ideas empty? Because they are subjective. Even when something seems self-evident. Even when something seems like they can't be questioned. Its all subjective (even this). Okay, I can agree that all ideas are empty. They're certainly devoid of physicality, at any rate. I'd agree that they're also subjective, etc. But, this assumes my own definition of 'idea', not yours above. Okay, that's my response.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 19:00:38 GMT -5
OOO, I can respond to this one! (It doesn't sound like Life on Planet Andrewpia)-- Moved to point out an irony here. I am suggesting that anything known, seen, experienced, observed, felt, sensed, realized, intuited (the list goes on)...is an idea. Doesn't matter if it is 'indirectly' or 'directly' experienced, its still an idea. Sorry, A, but as my fingers push buttons on this here keyboard, they sure don't feel like idea to me. It's. Just. Clacketyclack. on. a. keyboard. The aroma of carne asada on the barbecue; the sound of the music that fills the room; all these experiences, are not ideas to me. Qualia, perhaps, but not ideas. Now, after the fact, I can understand it being an idea--a memory in my head, an image in yours, or whatever, but in the moment that things are happening in the physical dimension, no, sorry, not ideas to me. Can't make any sense outta that one. This is total neutralization of ideas. I can't see how its possible to point away from ideas and mind any more than I am doing. I am not creating ANY notion of one idea being better than another, more preferable than another, more true than another. Well, I'd agree with you, here, but you really haven't 'neutralized' anything, because ideas are still just ideas to me. You haven't convinced me that direct experience is just an idea. The irony is that some people here often claim to be pointing away from ideas/mind, and yet are actually pointing to one idea being better/more preferable than another. And there is nothing wrong with that, there are many times when I am happy to say that one idea is better than another, but its best to do it honestly. Pointing away from ideation by saying that something has to be realized, or known, or that one thing is true and another false, or that one idea is actual and another imaginary....is not pointing away from mind/ideation because it is saying one idea is preferable to another. I am saying all ideas are empty. Whether its something known, seen, experienced, witnessed, realized....its all empty. Why are ideas empty? Because they are subjective. Even when something seems self-evident. Even when something seems like they can't be questioned. Its all subjective (even this). Okay, I can agree that all ideas are empty. They're certainly devoid of physicality, at any rate. I'd agree that they're also subjective, etc. But, this assumes my own definition of 'idea', not yours above. Okay, that's my response. Well, using the idea of 'idea' to describe anything perceived is a way of talking about the subjective and empty nature of anything sensed, known, felt, smelt, tasted, realized, intuited, experienced etc. Talking about sensory perceptions in terms of being 'ideas' can a) reveal the subjective/empty nature of sensory perceptions, and b) totally flatten/neutralize the playing field. Using the idea of 'ideas' in this way can help us to see through the seemingly concrete nature of things. If we are going to point away from mind/ideation, then setting one kind of perception up as preferable to another is not always useful. I can see the value in some situations in pointing to sensory perceptions...nevertheless, its all subjective, its all Mind, its all empty. And those are all just pointers. This is also why Niz says that 'I am' is an idea. 'I am' can be seen through. It has no foundation as much as it can seem as if it does.
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Post by topology on Jun 29, 2013 19:06:29 GMT -5
A non-conceptual realization is a logical impossibility, just like the idea that everything comes from nothing(Which it does by the way). First we have to define non-conceptual. Obviously it's that which isn't conceptual. So what 'is' that which isn't conceptual, well if it was 'something' than it wouldn't be non-conceptual. So to me non-conceptual is that which isn't 'known', or that which is Nothing, or that which is Everything, depending on how we want to talk 'about' it. It's not so much that mind is a process of realization so much as mind is the 'creator' of the conceptual. The mind literally 'creates' apples and realizations out of nothing, out of everything, out of the non-conceptual. What the mind creates as the concept of an apple or a realization, is actually everything except an apple or a realization. It is nothing and it is everything being reduced to a concept of the mind. It is the mind creating apples and realizations out of nothing, or everything, or the non-conceptual. Which is a logical impossibility.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:08:49 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. You attach to 'gone'??
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 19:10:16 GMT -5
I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. You attach to 'gone'?? No.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:12:39 GMT -5
That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** **watching as interest goes flying out the window after E puts the pedal to the metal** Yup, nothing for MEEEEEEEEEeeeeeee.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 19:15:18 GMT -5
A non-conceptual realization is a logical impossibility, just like the idea that everything comes from nothing(Which it does by the way). First we have to define non-conceptual. Obviously it's that which isn't conceptual. So what 'is' that which isn't conceptual, well if it was 'something' than it wouldn't be non-conceptual. So to me non-conceptual is that which isn't 'known', or that which is Nothing, or that which is Everything, depending on how we want to talk 'about' it. It's not so much that mind is a process of realization so much as mind is the 'creator' of the conceptual. The mind literally 'creates' apples and realizations out of nothing, out of everything, out of the non-conceptual. What the mind creates as the concept of an apple or a realization, is actually everything except an apple or a realization. It is nothing and it is everything being reduced to a concept of the mind. It is the mind creating apples and realizations out of nothing, or everything, or the non-conceptual. Which is a logical impossibility. Huh?
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