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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 16:03:29 GMT -5
He's hardcore about reducing non-conceptual realization to illusion? You got a quote to back that up? I just gave an example of one. Brahman has to be reduced to illusion. I would never call that a realization to begin with. I'd call it a pointer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 16:03:51 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago.
I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless.
Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone.
No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 16:05:27 GMT -5
I just gave an example of one. Brahman has to be reduced to illusion. I would never call that a realization to begin with. I'd call it a pointer. There is a realization that its all Being/Brahman (whatever you want to call it). This realization can be released to the proverbial void.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 16:06:13 GMT -5
Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe. It may well be best that you walk away from this. My guess is that at some point you won't though. Non-conceptual merely distinguishes between rational and non-rational thought. Its still all conceptual/imaginary/dream stuff. You're guessing at some point I'll see the immortal wisdom of your words? I see what Reefs means by ESA.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 16:07:29 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 16:08:06 GMT -5
I don't know what a Zen moment is. Aw c'mon. Y'know, when one figures out a zen mystery - 'tree falling in the woods' that kind of thing? Like when a koan is cracked? I spose so.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 16:09:12 GMT -5
I don't know what a Zen moment is. It's like a christian moment but with more long white beards and kung fu masters. Is it like a 'senor moment'??
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 16:10:24 GMT -5
It may well be best that you walk away from this. My guess is that at some point you won't though. Non-conceptual merely distinguishes between rational and non-rational thought. Its still all conceptual/imaginary/dream stuff. You're guessing at some point I'll see the immortal wisdom of your words? I see what Reefs means by ESA. I'm guessing that at some point there will be a movement to question, I doubt it will happen as a 'direct response' to what I am saying though.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 16:16:51 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff***
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 16:18:13 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home.***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** That can be attached to. Most likely usually is. 'Brahman'.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 16:20:45 GMT -5
I've been tempted to jump in here (not really) cuz I just had one (realization) a few months ago. I don't think its possible to understand what its all about unless you've been through one. You are trying to use words to understand the wordless. Something was there (a belief or something, deep within you which you can't see) -- {{realization}} -- and its gone. No big experience, no Ah Ha!, just something was gone. That's not a bad description. A belief collapses into a little greasy spot and goes away. No new idea, no attachment, just an emptying out, and in that emptying there is a space, and it has the scent of home. ***Flooring it as I approach cliff*** **watching as interest goes flying out the window after E puts the pedal to the metal**
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 17:02:24 GMT -5
What's the difference between a non-conceptual realization and a non-conceptual apple? Huh? A non-conceptual realization is a logical impossibility, just like the idea that everything comes from nothing(Which it does by the way). First we have to define non-conceptual. Obviously it's that which isn't conceptual. So what 'is' that which isn't conceptual, well if it was 'something' than it wouldn't be non-conceptual. So to me non-conceptual is that which isn't 'known', or that which is Nothing, or that which is Everything, depending on how we want to talk 'about' it. It's not so much that mind is a process of realization so much as mind is the 'creator' of the conceptual. The mind literally 'creates' apples and realizations out of nothing, out of everything, out of the non-conceptual. What the mind creates as the concept of an apple or a realization, is actually everything except an apple or a realization. It is nothing and it is everything being reduced to a concept of the mind. It is the mind creating apples and realizations out of nothing, or everything, or the non-conceptual. Which is a logical impossibility.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 29, 2013 17:19:24 GMT -5
I assume he means attached to the idea that mind forms as an interpretation of the realization, rather than attached to the idea of realizing, but if this is happening, one has given authority to the mind to take over the realization and attach to the concept about the realization. A realization, as such, never becomes a concept or a memory. It is the memory of the realization that is sometimes held on to. Someone who has seen through an abusive relationship might become an advocate for abused women, perhaps even doing good things, but remaining stunted in Self unfoldment as a result of the new identity. Someone who has had a glimpse of Self in a sudden ah-ha moment can cling to that experience and make an identity of it by becoming a teacher or guru. Some who have seen other realities, such as in near death experiences, can become bound up in an identity formed of it. Perhaps becoming a best selling author and popular lecturer. People stunt themselves all the time by clinging to realizations which that are not meant to be clung to.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 17:22:49 GMT -5
I assume he means attached to the idea that mind forms as an interpretation of the realization, rather than attached to the idea of realizing, but if this is happening, one has given authority to the mind to take over the realization and attach to the concept about the realization. A realization, as such, never becomes a concept or a memory. It is the memory of the realization that is sometimes held on to. Someone who has seen through an abusive relationship might become an advocate for abused women, perhaps even doing good things, but remaining stunted in Self unfoldment as a result of the new identity. Someone who have had a glimpse of Self in a sudden ah-ha moment can cling to that experience and make an identity of it by becoming a teacher or guru. Some who have seen other realities, such as in near death experiences, can become bound up in an identity formed of it. Perhaps becoming a best selling author and popular lecturer. People stunt themselves all the time by clinging to realizations which that are not meant to be clung to. Yeah, this makes sense to me--clinging to a memory.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 17:37:29 GMT -5
I have been clear that realizations are crucial. What I am also saying is that they can be attached to. yes, crucial. why would anyone want to continue being led around by lies? yet most do exactly that, without realizing it. realizations clear away the rubbish. your second sentence makes no sense, you have it bass ackwards. realizations remove attachments.
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