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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:36:12 GMT -5
He's not talking about releasing realizations, rather ideas. There's nothing in a realization to become attached to or to release. A realization is 'empty'. All ideas are 'empty', but its possible to attach to ideas because a realization is an idea. Niz is hardcore when it comes to this. He is willing to say that 'I am' is an idea, the first ignorance. There is nothing that Niz won't reduce to illusion, and that includes realizations. He's hardcore about reducing non-conceptual realization to illusion? You got a quote to back that up?
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:37:34 GMT -5
You agree that mind is a process of conceptualization, and that realization is non-conceptual, but you still insist realization is mind. 'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual', its just a type of 'conceptual'. Its just not rational thought. Its still mind/Mind. Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:38:47 GMT -5
He's not talking about releasing realizations, rather ideas. There's nothing in a realization to become attached to or to release. A realization is 'empty'.Oh. You mean a realization is just another zen moment? I don't know what a Zen moment is.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 15:39:12 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual' There's really no way to have a conversation with you about this stuff. This hasn't been a conversation with you!
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 15:39:16 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual' There's really no way to have a conversation with you about this stuff. Yeah, it's all I can do to get out of one (a conversation with Andrew) as quickly as I can. (Sorry, A, nothing personal in that).
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 15:40:38 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual', its just a type of 'conceptual'. Its just not rational thought. Its still mind/Mind. Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe. Yeah, that one pretty much drove it off the cliff for me, too.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 15:40:58 GMT -5
All ideas are 'empty', but its possible to attach to ideas because a realization is an idea. Niz is hardcore when it comes to this. He is willing to say that 'I am' is an idea, the first ignorance. There is nothing that Niz won't reduce to illusion, and that includes realizations. He's hardcore about reducing non-conceptual realization to illusion? You got a quote to back that up? I just gave an example of one. Brahman has to be reduced to illusion.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 15:42:55 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual', its just a type of 'conceptual'. Its just not rational thought. Its still mind/Mind. Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe. It may well be best that you walk away from this. My guess is that at some point you won't though. Non-conceptual merely distinguishes between rational and non-rational thought. Its still all conceptual/imaginary/dream stuff.
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Post by silver on Jun 29, 2013 15:44:32 GMT -5
Oh. You mean a realization is just another zen moment? I don't know what a Zen moment is. Aw c'mon. Y'know, when one figures out a zen mystery - 'tree falling in the woods' that kind of thing?
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Post by silence on Jun 29, 2013 15:48:22 GMT -5
Oh. You mean a realization is just another zen moment? I don't know what a Zen moment is. It's like a christian moment but with more long white beards and kung fu masters.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:49:24 GMT -5
What I mean when I say realizations are timeless is that they are 'seeings' that don't take time. They happen instantly. what is seen is seen whole and complete all at once. This is because there is no thinking or ideas involved in the realizing. It is not a process. They are neither dream stuff nor dreamer. They're not imagination, which is conceptual. No 'seeing' takes time, every seeing happens instantly and what is seen is seen whole and complete all at once. So.... 'its all imaginary, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all made up, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all dream stuff except realizations'. Come on E, get over it. Realizations are imagination, all made up, and all dream stuff. If everything else is of course. The only thing that can be imaginary is ideas. Realization is not the realization of ideas. It's the 'seeing through' of those ideas. If realization were an idea, then it could be taught.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:50:37 GMT -5
'non-conceptual' is still 'conceptual' There's really no way to have a conversation with you about this stuff. That's my conclusion as well.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 15:54:53 GMT -5
No 'seeing' takes time, every seeing happens instantly and what is seen is seen whole and complete all at once. So.... 'its all imaginary, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all made up, except realizations'. Hehe....'its all dream stuff except realizations'. Come on E, get over it. Realizations are imagination, all made up, and all dream stuff. If everything else is of course. The only thing that can be imaginary is ideas. Realization is not the realization of ideas. It's the 'seeing through' of those ideas. If realization were an idea, then it could be taught. What you call 'seeing through ideas' happens as part of, or within, ideas. Its. all. just. ideas. Empty ones. Sorry dude.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 15:57:34 GMT -5
Oh, realization cannot be 'taught' because its non-rational, that's all.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 15:59:36 GMT -5
Non-conceptual is still conceptual?............ Okay, I think my work here is done. Hehe. Yeah, that one pretty much drove it off the cliff for me, too.
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