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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 12:10:49 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? * contains absolute certainty *
Experiencing a sense of 'absolute certainty' can happen here.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:25:25 GMT -5
Existential....questions...are...misconceptions. And...what...is...the..basis...of...that...realization? i.e. what did you see in order for you to have that realization? What layers of assumptions is that realization founded upon? The realization isn't founded on any assumptions. No realization is founded on assumptions.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:26:33 GMT -5
If, by that, you mean in the absence of thinking, yes. Even if realizations happen in the absence of thinking, they still happen inside mind. Where else could they happen? The question is misconceived.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 13:34:23 GMT -5
Even if realizations happen in the absence of thinking, they still happen inside mind. Where else could they happen? The question is misconceived. You just love that term, don'tcha? 'Misconceived' is becoming to enigma what ideas are to Andrew.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:34:27 GMT -5
I don't know how absolute subjectivity could mean 'no idea is necessarily true or false'. You mean it might be objectively true or false and you just don't know? What's subjective about that? It just means that all ideas are subjective. Including that idea. What that means is that any idea might be true, or it might not be. Its not that 'ideas are not ultimately true', it just means ever so simply....its possible that an idea is true and its possible that its false. Its unknown. Its all unknown. And that's JUST a pointer. If it's all made up (subjective), how can anything be unknown about it? That's what you did with Germidgepillion question; you somehow don't know the answer to a question about an imaginary creature, and you need more information about it. What is it that keeps you from noticing the absurdity of that? You're positing an unknown objective truth/falsity about a made up idea, and then you project that confusion onto me.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 13:38:55 GMT -5
And...what...is...the..basis...of...that...realization? i.e. what did you see in order for you to have that realization? What layers of assumptions is that realization founded upon? The realization isn't founded on any assumptions. No realization is founded on assumptions. Of course it is. Everything is a play of ideas. Layers of assumptions and axioms on top of each other. A realization would not happen without other ideas, other assumptions. Again, if a realization isn't an idea, what is it?
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 13:39:33 GMT -5
Even if realizations happen in the absence of thinking, they still happen inside mind. Where else could they happen? The question is misconceived. On what basis?
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:39:37 GMT -5
Realization is not an idea until mind turns it into one. Apparently, for you, that step is unconscious and unavoidable. You don't see realizations, you see your conclusions about them. A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? A non-conceptual realization. No, it isn't. Serially, Andrew, we can't talk about realization cuz you've never had one.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:48:14 GMT -5
The realization isn't founded on any assumptions. No realization is founded on assumptions. Of course it is. Everything is a play of ideas. Layers of assumptions and axioms on top of each other. A realization would not happen without other ideas, other assumptions. Again, if a realization isn't an idea, what is it? I have no way of telling you.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 13:49:05 GMT -5
It just means that all ideas are subjective. Including that idea. What that means is that any idea might be true, or it might not be. Its not that 'ideas are not ultimately true', it just means ever so simply....its possible that an idea is true and its possible that its false. Its unknown. Its all unknown. And that's JUST a pointer. If it's all made up (subjective), how can anything be unknown about it? That's what you did with Germidgepillion question; you somehow don't know the answer to a question about an imaginary creature, and you need more information about it. What is it that keeps you from noticing the absurdity of that? You're positing an unknown objective truth/falsity about a made up idea, and then you project that confusion onto me. I am not saying 'its all made up', that's your pointer not mine, I wouldn't say 'its all made up'. What I am saying is that 'everything is a play of ideas', which is somewhat different to saying 'its all made up' because I am not implying a maker-upper. I pointed out that 'its all unknown' was a pointer, its the best word I've got to describe the nature of 'this' (again, just a pointer). I am not positing anything prior to ideas. Sure the experience of knowing something can happen but that's beside the point. The experience of knowing what a Germidgepillion eats is not an experience I've had, (and I am speaking from the assumption there that anything conceived of exists) though if I had more information, maybe that experience would happen.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:50:33 GMT -5
The question is misconceived. On what basis? On the basis of all the assumptions on which the question is formed.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 13:51:05 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? A non-conceptual realization. No, it isn't. Serially, Andrew, we can't talk about realization cuz you've never had one. I dunno, e. I think A might have had a realization or two in his lifetime. Maybe he just doesn't call it a realization? And, maybe because he likes swimming in ideas so much, that he's just playing with you? Remember, to English folks, a 'bonnet' is the hood of a car, and gas is 'petrol'.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 13:52:45 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? A non-conceptual realization. No, it isn't. Serially, Andrew, we can't talk about realization cuz you've never had one. A 'non-conceptual realization' is just a way of distinguishing 'rational thought' ideas from 'non-rational thought ideas'. Its STILL an idea. Its STILL mind. Its STILL a perception point. And they can be attached to. Its absurd to suggest that I've never had a realization. You are copping out massively here E. It seems that you are not ready to notice that your 'realizations' are just more 'ideas', that may or may not be true.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 13:53:21 GMT -5
Of course it is. Everything is a play of ideas. Layers of assumptions and axioms on top of each other. A realization would not happen without other ideas, other assumptions. Again, if a realization isn't an idea, what is it? I have no way of telling you. And the basis for having no way of telling me is what?
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 13:55:18 GMT -5
If it's all made up (subjective), how can anything be unknown about it? That's what you did with Germidgepillion question; you somehow don't know the answer to a question about an imaginary creature, and you need more information about it. What is it that keeps you from noticing the absurdity of that? You're positing an unknown objective truth/falsity about a made up idea, and then you project that confusion onto me. I am not saying 'its all made up', that's your pointer not mine, I wouldn't say 'its all made up'. What I am saying is that 'everything is a play of ideas', which is somewhat different to saying 'its all made up' because I am not implying a maker-upper. I'm not implying that either. They are the same. Your assumptions are just more made up ideas. Drrrrrrrrop em.
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