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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 10:52:05 GMT -5
I really don't know anything about levels. Shorry. Do you still think realizations happen outside of mind? If, by that, you mean in the absence of thinking, yes.
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 10:55:19 GMT -5
I don't suggest you do anything in particular with them, and neither does Niz. He's offering a pointer to a realization. The realization that no idea is necessarily true or false, the realization that 'this' is empty (and not even that). Its a pointer to absolute subjectivity. I don't know how absolute subjectivity could mean 'no idea is necessarily true or false'. You mean it might be objectively true or false and you just don't know? What's subjective about that?
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Post by enigma on Jun 29, 2013 11:05:06 GMT -5
Enigma, your confusion on this subject seems to be centered around this 'realization' business. If the point of the spiritual path is to 'achieve' an abiding peace, certain realizations are crucial to this. What you seem to have missed is that realizations are still 'mind', okay its not the logical rational thinking mind, but it is still mind in the sense that a realization is just another point of perception, another idea (everything is a play of ideas). Realizations can be attached to, a point of perception can be attached to. What you have not seen/realized is that no idea is necessarily true or false, and I understand why there is resistance to this realization....its because it calls into question every other realization that you have had. It leaves you...'realization-less'. It leaves you without a ground. It leaves you without a fixed point of perception. And it also renders the idea that 'no idea is ultimately true' as misconceived. Abiding peace has nothing to do with seeing that 'existential questions are misconceived', and that's coz they are not necessarily misconceived. Abiding peace has everything to do with being responsive to the moment, and that might mean answering someone's existential questions. I'm not saying there is no time and place to say that the idea of 'purpose' is a misconceived one, and I'm not saying that its not a useful thing to 'realize', but its not a 'given' answer. Its not a 'fixed' answer. Its not a 'true' answer. At most its just another realization to be released into the proverbial void, and NOT because 'no idea is ultimately true', but because no idea is necessary true or false. Lecture over! Realization is not an idea until mind turns it into one. Apparently, for you, that step is unconscious and unavoidable. You don't see realizations, you see your conclusions about them.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 11:13:44 GMT -5
What was the realization specifically? Existential....questions...are...misconceptions. And...what...is...the..basis...of...that...realization? i.e. what did you see in order for you to have that realization? What layers of assumptions is that realization founded upon?
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 11:15:08 GMT -5
Do you still think realizations happen outside of mind? If, by that, you mean in the absence of thinking, yes. Even if realizations happen in the absence of thinking, they still happen inside mind. Where else could they happen?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2013 11:19:27 GMT -5
If, by that, you mean in the absence of thinking, yes. Even if realizations happen in the absence of thinking, they still happen inside mind. Where else could they happen? Yes. A feedback loop has been created.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 11:27:08 GMT -5
The realization that no idea is necessarily true or false, the realization that 'this' is empty (and not even that). Its a pointer to absolute subjectivity. I don't know how absolute subjectivity could mean 'no idea is necessarily true or false'. You mean it might be objectively true or false and you just don't know? What's subjective about that? It just means that all ideas are subjective. Including that idea. What that means is that any idea might be true, or it might not be. Its not that 'ideas are not ultimately true', it just means ever so simply....its possible that an idea is true and its possible that its false. Its unknown. Its all unknown. And that's JUST a pointer.
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Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2013 11:33:21 GMT -5
Enigma, your confusion on this subject seems to be centered around this 'realization' business. If the point of the spiritual path is to 'achieve' an abiding peace, certain realizations are crucial to this. What you seem to have missed is that realizations are still 'mind', okay its not the logical rational thinking mind, but it is still mind in the sense that a realization is just another point of perception, another idea (everything is a play of ideas). Realizations can be attached to, a point of perception can be attached to. What you have not seen/realized is that no idea is necessarily true or false, and I understand why there is resistance to this realization....its because it calls into question every other realization that you have had. It leaves you...'realization-less'. It leaves you without a ground. It leaves you without a fixed point of perception. And it also renders the idea that 'no idea is ultimately true' as misconceived. Abiding peace has nothing to do with seeing that 'existential questions are misconceived', and that's coz they are not necessarily misconceived. Abiding peace has everything to do with being responsive to the moment, and that might mean answering someone's existential questions. I'm not saying there is no time and place to say that the idea of 'purpose' is a misconceived one, and I'm not saying that its not a useful thing to 'realize', but its not a 'given' answer. Its not a 'fixed' answer. Its not a 'true' answer. At most its just another realization to be released into the proverbial void, and NOT because 'no idea is ultimately true', but because no idea is necessary true or false. Lecture over! Realization is not an idea until mind turns it into one. Apparently, for you, that step is unconscious and unavoidable. You don't see realizations, you see your conclusions about them. A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? In the terms in which you say 'its all imaginary' (and to be clear, its not really a pointer I use because of the implication), a realization is imaginary. For that reason, realizations can, and do, get attached to. They HAVE to be released into the 'void' from which they came. Its just another idea that may or may not be true. I saw something clearly this morning with regard to Niz after Silence mentioned him. Niz talks about stabilizing in 'I am' and then transcending it. The transcending part happens through the release of the realization. I am not prescribing how to do that, but that's what has to happen. Stabilizing in 'I am' is what you mean by 'realization', but it comes with attachment.
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 11:38:08 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? * contains absolute certainty *
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 11:41:24 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? My own definition of it more closely resembles the process you and Figs mention a lot--it's the event of the dissolution of an attachment.
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 11:42:13 GMT -5
A realization IS an idea. What else could it be? * contains absolute certainty *
... which is just another idea ... (absolute certainty, that is)
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 11:46:06 GMT -5
* contains absolute certainty *
... which is just another idea ... (absolute certainty, that is) * contains wheel-spinning *
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 11:47:34 GMT -5
... which is just another idea ... (absolute certainty, that is) * contains wheel-spinning *... which is just another idea ... (wheel-spinning, that is)
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Post by Reefs on Jun 29, 2013 11:49:56 GMT -5
* contains wheel-spinning * ... which is just another idea ... (wheel-spinning, that is) TMT
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Post by Beingist on Jun 29, 2013 11:55:02 GMT -5
... which is just another idea ... (wheel-spinning, that is) TMT *raises finger*
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