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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 11:36:51 GMT -5
I guess what I was trying to talk about is the impersonal nature of individuated experience. The experience is never entirely driven from within the individuation, as this would require separation as an actuality. Ultimately, this means that 'bad' things can happen to the individual no matter how absent the individual is of an identifying overlay. We can argue that, absent this overlay, there is no psychological suffering but there may still be pain and hardship that can look like suffering to an observer. I'm not prepared to call that suffering, though, because suffering is in the subjective interpretation of that experience. Oddly enough, "It's a cold, hard, cruel world" and "bad things happen to good people" seem to me to also capture this idea.  Said another way, where there's a peep, there's suffering.  Well, that's one of those subjective interpretations I mentioned. The personal perspective sees the impersonal movement of creation as cold, hard and cruel because the person is not acknowledged by creation as a separate being. However, the individuation is supported by the integrated movement of nature. It's only when that individuation thinks and acts as though it is separate that there is suffering, and this brings pain and hardship to all of creation. The separate person cannot be saved as there isn't one. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 11:46:04 GMT -5
Yes, mucho true, so lets make the distinction between witnessing with no thought and being present with pain and fear. The later can be quite painful until one sees the role that thought plays in those feelings. If there's a practice of sorts involved, it's not avoiding thought but rather inviting feeling and observing mind. This is allowing and confronting rather than escaping. Mind will stand down when it sees itself as the source of unnecessary suffering rather than the solution. In the way we're talking about this, ATA is an avoidance practice.   That's why there's more than one pointer that each sound different but reference the same practice. ATA and "watch the thinker" lead me to exactly the same experience, because the thinker inevitably goes silent when watched. I know ZD has defined it as "mindfulness minus thoughts", but getting to "minus thoughts" involves the same intermediary (the witness) as allowing pain or letting a recursive loop of thought run itself into mist. The Niz version involves the prescription of shifting attention to the sense of being, and that's where Tolle tells readers that they find themselves: in the space between the thoughts. Yes, I agree, and I don't want to place myself in opposition to various forms of ATA. My thang is to point out what is actually going on, and what's going on in those practices is not reconditioning of habits but rather noticing. In most practices the noticing happens quite indirectly and can take a great deal of time, assuming it happens at all, which it may not because noticing is not the goal of those practices. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 3, 2014 12:37:39 GMT -5
Oddly enough, "It's a cold, hard, cruel world" and "bad things happen to good people" seem to me to also capture this idea. Said another way, where there's a peep, there's suffering. Well, that's one of those subjective interpretations I mentioned. The personal perspective sees the impersonal movement of creation as cold, hard and cruel because the person is not acknowledged by creation as a separate being. However, the individuation is supported by the integrated movement of nature. It's only when that individuation thinks and acts as though it is separate that there is suffering, and this brings pain and hardship to all of creation. The separate person cannot be saved as there isn't one. ! See what I mean?? Evil frogs bein' mean to peeps! It is a cold cruel world! |
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Post by laughter on Sept 3, 2014 12:41:08 GMT -5
That's why there's more than one pointer that each sound different but reference the same practice. ATA and "watch the thinker" lead me to exactly the same experience, because the thinker inevitably goes silent when watched. I know ZD has defined it as "mindfulness minus thoughts", but getting to "minus thoughts" involves the same intermediary (the witness) as allowing pain or letting a recursive loop of thought run itself into mist. The Niz version involves the prescription of shifting attention to the sense of being, and that's where Tolle tells readers that they find themselves: in the space between the thoughts. Yes, I agree, and I don't want to place myself in opposition to various forms of ATA. My thang is to point out what is actually going on, and what's going on in those practices is not reconditioning of habits but rather noticing. In most practices the noticing happens quite indirectly and can take a great deal of time, assuming it happens at all, which it may not because noticing is not the goal of those practices. Yes, that sort of nails what I was getting at with the industrialization of witnessing for the pleasure, health and well-being of the peep. Meditation is naturally seen as a reconditioning. I know that I thought of it that way at one point. Seems to me that the sooner a person hears the truth, the better, regardless of their reaction to it. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 12:59:17 GMT -5
Well, that's one of those subjective interpretations I mentioned. The personal perspective sees the impersonal movement of creation as cold, hard and cruel because the person is not acknowledged by creation as a separate being. However, the individuation is supported by the integrated movement of nature. It's only when that individuation thinks and acts as though it is separate that there is suffering, and this brings pain and hardship to all of creation. The separate person cannot be saved as there isn't one. ! See what I mean?? Evil frogs bein' mean to peeps! It is a cold cruel world! The separate person is doomed! BWAHAHAHAAAA! (According to Sunny, frogs are sposed to be treated badly cause they obstruct traffic in Austrailia or some such.)  |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 13:05:56 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, and I don't want to place myself in opposition to various forms of ATA. My thang is to point out what is actually going on, and what's going on in those practices is not reconditioning of habits but rather noticing. In most practices the noticing happens quite indirectly and can take a great deal of time, assuming it happens at all, which it may not because noticing is not the goal of those practices. Yes, that sort of nails what I was getting at with the industrialization of witnessing for the pleasure, health and well-being of the peep. Meditation is naturally seen as a reconditioning. I know that I thought of it that way at one point. Seems to me that the sooner a person hears the truth, the better, regardless of their reaction to it. Yes, a more refined focus saves time in getting to the dead end of the path, which is why it's also useful to notice what suffering is not. Peeps spend so much time trying to avoid the dualistic nature of feeling; the search for the Holy One-Ended Stick. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 3, 2014 13:16:54 GMT -5
Yes, that sort of nails what I was getting at with the industrialization of witnessing for the pleasure, health and well-being of the peep. Meditation is naturally seen as a reconditioning. I know that I thought of it that way at one point. Seems to me that the sooner a person hears the truth, the better, regardless of their reaction to it. Yes, a more refined focus saves time in getting to the dead end of the path, which is why it's also useful to notice what suffering is not. Peeps spend so much time trying to avoid the dualistic nature of feeling; the search for the Holy One-Ended Stick. (** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 13:43:51 GMT -5
Yes, a more refined focus saves time in getting to the dead end of the path, which is why it's also useful to notice what suffering is not. Peeps spend so much time trying to avoid the dualistic nature of feeling; the search for the Holy One-Ended Stick. (** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! As escape plans go, it's not really a very good one. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 3, 2014 15:35:11 GMT -5
(** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! As escape plans go, it's not really a very good one. Wasn't everyone s'posed to ascend with Bashar to Akasia through a jump room back in 2012 or sumthin'??  |
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Post by andrew on Sept 3, 2014 16:36:49 GMT -5
Yes, a more refined focus saves time in getting to the dead end of the path, which is why it's also useful to notice what suffering is not. Peeps spend so much time trying to avoid the dualistic nature of feeling; the search for the Holy One-Ended Stick. (** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! On my facebook today...I thought of the forum. ''There is always an even happier thought than the happy thought you're thinking now. There is always an even better feeling-- your capacity to achieve a better feeling is unlimited.'' (Abe-Hicks) This is correct theoretically...practically I suspect there are biological limits, though these limits can evolve. The reason that this is correct is because experience is only dualistic in the sense that the opposite of something is the absence of that something, and within that absence there are infinite potentials. Such is the nature of contrast. The opposite of joy is not-joy, which includes everything but joy. Nevertheless, I see the value in pointing away from happy thoughts and better feelings, I like pointers away from states as much as I like pointers to them. All depends. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 3, 2014 16:49:02 GMT -5
As escape plans go, it's not really a very good one. Wasn't everyone s'posed to ascend with Bashar to Akasia through a jump room back in 2012 or sumthin'?? We are fully immersed in the ascension. The end of 2012 was a turning point, or a pivot point. The acceleration in 2014 has been intense, next year even more so. Though paradoxically, it is 'time' as we have known it and experienced it that is collapsing. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 22:34:18 GMT -5
As escape plans go, it's not really a very good one. Wasn't everyone s'posed to ascend with Bashar to Akasia through a jump room back in 2012 or sumthin'?? Uh oh, that seems to have triggered the Andybat signal. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 3, 2014 22:56:58 GMT -5
(** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! On my facebook today...I thought of the forum. ''There is always an even happier thought than the happy thought you're thinking now. There is always an even better feeling-- your capacity to achieve a better feeling is unlimited.'' (Abe-Hicks) This is correct theoretically...practically I suspect there are biological limits, though these limits can evolve. The reason that this is correct is because experience is only dualistic in the sense that the opposite of something is the absence of that something, and within that absence there are infinite potentials. Such is the nature of contrast. The opposite of joy is not-joy, which includes everything but joy. Nevertheless, I see the value in pointing away from happy thoughts and better feelings, I like pointers away from states as much as I like pointers to them. All depends. That joy is a movement, and you're talking about sustaining an unending movement toward greater and greater joy, and even if this were possible, soon you would know nothing but that movement and know nothing of the absence of that movement. Normalizing to the movement toward greater joy destroys the movement as there isn't anything else to compare it to. You're wanting to cheat duality as though it is a process happening outside of you. You're trying to pull one over on your own imagination. |
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Post by silver on Sept 3, 2014 23:29:47 GMT -5
On my facebook today...I thought of the forum. ''There is always an even happier thought than the happy thought you're thinking now. There is always an even better feeling-- your capacity to achieve a better feeling is unlimited.'' (Abe-Hicks) This is correct theoretically...practically I suspect there are biological limits, though these limits can evolve. The reason that this is correct is because experience is only dualistic in the sense that the opposite of something is the absence of that something, and within that absence there are infinite potentials. Such is the nature of contrast. The opposite of joy is not-joy, which includes everything but joy. Nevertheless, I see the value in pointing away from happy thoughts and better feelings, I like pointers away from states as much as I like pointers to them. All depends. That joy is a movement, and you're talking about sustaining an unending movement toward greater and greater joy, and even if this were possible, soon you would know nothing but that movement and know nothing of the absence of that movement. Normalizing to the movement toward greater joy destroys the movement as there isn't anything else to compare it to. You're wanting to cheat duality as though it is a process happening outside of you. You're trying to pull one over on your own imagination. I think that Hicks quote is a little ridiculous, but I can't help but wonder if his meaning of more joy is less linear and more about facets and angles, seeing things from different perspectives or something. |
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Post by runstill on Sept 4, 2014 0:21:15 GMT -5
Yes, a more refined focus saves time in getting to the dead end of the path, which is why it's also useful to notice what suffering is not. Peeps spend so much time trying to avoid the dualistic nature of feeling; the search for the Holy One-Ended Stick. (** glances left and right for any sides of figandrew **) But experiences don't have to be based on polarities of opposites! They can swing from love to joy to niceness to sugar & spice to happiness to gladness to wonderfuliciousness and so on! I think your psychic........ |
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That's why there's more than one pointer that each sound different but reference the same practice. ATA and "watch the thinker" lead me to exactly the same experience, because the thinker inevitably goes silent when watched. I know ZD has defined it as "mindfulness minus thoughts", but getting to "minus thoughts" involves the same intermediary (the witness) as allowing pain or letting a recursive loop of thought run itself into mist.
