Is this enlightenment or not?

[elesdeejay]

I will start off with an analogy of sorts. When you sleep, when you dream, some people experience an expansion of time. A number of hours, days, years... Infinity can pass by in a single night. This sometimes happens to people in their waking hours. In anticipation of a guest perhaps, your perception of time can expand or contract based upon your feelings for that person. When you were young and waiting for class to get out, time moves slowly, while for others, they say the day felt short. I liken this to be the same device. The same perception.

Now this is the part I am confused about.

I have felt the borders of my consciousness collapse and it seemed as though I was wrapping my mind around all of existence, abandoning my persona and adopting reality as it truly was. I left myself. That is the best I can really explain it.

They call this disintegration of the ego and I am told it is negative.

I lost my sense of separation, in that my personal sense of the passing of time. But in those moments I failed to understand what was happening and have since lost touch with these feelings.

Is what I experienced, this abandonment of the concept of time and the concept of self, considered enlightenment?

If so, how can I guide myself back to this state?

I understand my goal and would know if I was there again... It seems as though I should just always be there because truly we all are... Its so confusing yet so clear.

I am lost but seeking, if someone helps me I promise to help everyone I can.

Is this the goal of anyone else, is this an established religion? Are there steps to enlightenment? Is my conception of enlightenment wrong? Is it widely accepted among enlightened folk?

I need help. I need guidance, I think we all do. I could go on and on and ask a million questions, but it would detract from my point and actual concern. Please...

[Peter]

May 14, 2009 13:12:45 GMT -5 elesdeejay said:

I have felt the borders of my consciousness collapse and it seemed as though I was wrapping my mind around all of existence, abandoning my persona and adopting reality as it truly was. I left myself. That is the best I can really explain it.

They call this disintegration of the ego and I am told it is negative.

Uncreated has offered you confident advice in your other thread.... I got myself into a bit of a state when I started opening up doors in my mind and ended up in hospital so my advice will be more cautious. Perhaps I'm wrong and you need to take the fearless warrior path in order to break free, but the mind can be a fragile thing and the sub-conscious contains some very powerful energies.

Whatever happens to your ego, you're going to need to integrate that experience sufficiently to be able to function and express yourself (and know when not to express yourself!) in the mundane world. Hope you don't take offence, but you're sounding a little on the ungrounded side at the moment?

I've been getting into Jack Kornfield recently - currently reading "A Path With Heart" which is a really down to earth and lighthearted read, but it goes deep and covers everything (?) you might encounter during meditation. This one is next on my list, you might find it relevant - is After the Ecstasy, The Laundry He's pretty mainstream, your local library can probably get you a copy.

May 14, 2009 13:12:45 GMT -5 elesdeejay said:

If so, how can I guide myself back to this state?

As well as trying to get back to that experience, you might consider seeking out a deeper experience of the state you're currently in? Experience what IS, now, rather than seeking what you want to experience. It's an option, anway.

Be kind to yourself.
Peter

[eputkonen]

May 14, 2009 13:12:45 GMT -5 elesdeejay said:

Is what I experienced, this abandonment of the concept of time and the concept of self, considered enlightenment?

If so, how can I guide myself back to this state?

The answer is in the question. Enlightenment is not a state, nor something you pass into and then leave. Enlightenment is a deep realization of being...who/what you really are. And like all realizations and understandings, once you understand - you don't become confused again later...or you really didn't understand in the first place.

You experienced a passing spiritual experience. That is not Enlightenment.

When I was younger, I experienced several mystical experiences...being one with a forest I was meditating in and loosing body awareness. I have felt one with the universe and no time. None of them stayed...the experiences left. And they all left me relatively unchanged...I still was seeking, suffering, fearful, etc.

Enlightenment is a deep realization of being...and in that seeking ceases, suffering ceases, fear ceases, etc. and they don't come back (Enlightenment is not a passing experience, but a deep realization and understanding).

Are there steps to enlightenment?

No.

[lightmystic]

Hello,

It can be very overwhelming when one's experience starts to go from between 0%-1% of infinity to 100% of infinity. So the flashy experience of the ego dropping off temporarily and experiencing this vast timelessness can very often be part of the process, if your system is wired that way. I know that mine is, although many peoples are not. These mystical experiences can integrate and become the reality over time, but they are the byproduct of Enlightenment, not Enlightenment itself. And the byproducts that people experience vary from person to person. They are really just mystical experiences, coming from an understanding (passing or permanent) of who and what you really are and have always been.

There is nothing wrong with disintegration of the ego. It's natural part of a natural process.

The process of getting to Enlightenment is the process of unwinding resistances to life in whatever way is right for you, until the reality of life is clear enough to realize what you really are. How that happens varies widely from person to person. There are no set steps, and each model for it is essentially just various maps of what others have done. Ultimately, it is for life to show you your path....

Enlightenment cannot be a religion, because religions, like all belief systems are built on beliefs and conceptions: things that are not directly experienced. Enlightenment is a direct experience. More direct than the mind, than the heart, than your own self. It's so close to us that we miss it, like a fish looking for water. And the resistances to the idea are so deeply ingrained that it takes some degree of unwinding those in order to really be able to see what has always been the closest thing to us. Because there is an identification as a separate person, Enlightenment seems to threaten that. Enlightenment is the letting go of all concepts, including concepts of conceptlessness. So it can feel very threatening. But as a wise friend of mine once said: death is perfectly safe....

May 14, 2009 13:12:45 GMT -5 elesdeejay said:

Now this is the part I am confused about.

I have felt the borders of my consciousness collapse and it seemed as though I was wrapping my mind around all of existence, abandoning my persona and adopting reality as it truly was. I left myself. That is the best I can really explain it.

They call this disintegration of the ego and I am told it is negative.

I lost my sense of separation, in that my personal sense of the passing of time. But in those moments I failed to understand what was happening and have since lost touch with these feelings.

Is what I experienced, this abandonment of the concept of time and the concept of self, considered enlightenment?

If so, how can I guide myself back to this state?

I understand my goal and would know if I was there again... It seems as though I should just always be there because truly we all are... Its so confusing yet so clear.

I am lost but seeking, if someone helps me I promise to help everyone I can.

Is this the goal of anyone else, is this an established religion? Are there steps to enlightenment? Is my conception of enlightenment wrong? Is it widely accepted among enlightened folk?

I need help. I need guidance, I think we all do. I could go on and on and ask a million questions, but it would detract from my point and actual concern. Please...

[fear]

Elesdeejay,

The state you describe is from what I know, the state of the observer. Where you identify with nothing and just watch the world. It's a blissful experience where nothing can hurt you (because you just observe it) and there is a feeling of being one with everything.

This is often confused with awakening because of the blissful feeling. The length of the experience varies but it is not "the awakening". How does one know this? because when it's gone you want it back. The fact that you want it back, shows you that you are still victim to attachment and therefore it cannot be true enlightenment.

I experienced this for a very short while in meditation once. Probably not as deep as you went, though.

[Peter]

Someone found my site this morning by searching for the phrase "I am enlightened". Which seemed like a search that would yield interesting results so I tried it myself and found this article that I thought was well written and helpful:

Am I Enlightened?

Except below as well as some quotes that I thought were worth sharing:

In radical nondual teachings, the point is often made that neurological malfunctions, unseen conditioning, and fragmented ways of thinking are all nothing but modifications of this same One Consciousness. Undivided Boundlessness is simply thinking or imagining that it is a fragment in a world of separate pieces. This imagination—along with events such as the holocaust or the bombing of Iraq---are all simply shapes that boundlessness (or Oneness, or Consciousness) is momentarily assuming. It’s like a dream – it has no substance. Nothing real is ever being destroyed. Our human behavior is impersonal and beyond our control, like the weather – and as with the weather, nothing is really unnatural or bad even if we don’t like it. But it’s easy to misunderstand these teachings and to begin imagining that “undivided boundlessness” (or Consciousness, or Being, or Oneness, or emptiness) is some kind of solid thing, and that since everything is only this one thing, therefore, everything must be “good” and “okay.” And since human behavior is like weather, and nothing real is being destroyed, therefore, there’s no need to act or get involved in any way. Just be detached and let it all be as it is. Do nothing. It’s all good. It’s all nothing. As if our ability to act is not also part of Totality! And as if “nothing” were some nihilistic void.

Enlightenment is not like a sudden realization of something mysterious. Enlightenment is nothing but awakening from illusions and returning to the reality of life.

--Zen teacher Uchiyama

Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings.

--Zen Master Dogen

Enlightenment is nothing more than this: to be fully present, to see the grasping nature of our own minds, and not to act out of that grasping. It’s to see ourselves not as separate, not as lacking, not as in charge, not as weak and helpless.

--Zen teacher Steve Hagen

If you believe that there is something lacking, it is not quite so. But if you think there is nothing to do, nothing needed, that is not quite so.

--Zen teacher Elihu Genmyo Smith

The surprise within the surprise of every new discovery is that there is ever more to be discovered.

--Brother David Steindl-Rast, Catholic monk

[lightmystic]

I read the whole article. Wow, that was long, but she really covers most of the points that people get hung up on and manages to do a very good job pointing from a lot of different angles. Thanks for posting it Peter!

She keeps coming back to the fact that "deluded moments" doesn't negate Enlightenment because who is the "I"? While I definitely understand and appreciate what she is saying, and do not disagree with her in any way, I really find that it's the recognition of each aspect that was considered to be in the way of wholeness actually IS that same wholeness that we were trying to "get". So there is nothing to avoid anymore, and this recognition goes deeper and deeper over time.

Of course, one has to know who and what they really are as that Totality before everything else can be recognized as it....

Aug 26, 2009 4:04:44 GMT -5 Peter said:

Someone found my site this morning by searching for the phrase "I am enlightened". Which seemed like a search that would yield interesting results so I tried it myself and found this article that I thought was well written and helpful:

Am I Enlightened?

Except below as well as some quotes that I thought were worth sharing:

In radical nondual teachings, the point is often made that neurological malfunctions, unseen conditioning, and fragmented ways of thinking are all nothing but modifications of this same One Consciousness. Undivided Boundlessness is simply thinking or imagining that it is a fragment in a world of separate pieces. This imagination—along with events such as the holocaust or the bombing of Iraq---are all simply shapes that boundlessness (or Oneness, or Consciousness) is momentarily assuming. It’s like a dream – it has no substance. Nothing real is ever being destroyed. Our human behavior is impersonal and beyond our control, like the weather – and as with the weather, nothing is really unnatural or bad even if we don’t like it. But it’s easy to misunderstand these teachings and to begin imagining that “undivided boundlessness” (or Consciousness, or Being, or Oneness, or emptiness) is some kind of solid thing, and that since everything is only this one thing, therefore, everything must be “good” and “okay.” And since human behavior is like weather, and nothing real is being destroyed, therefore, there’s no need to act or get involved in any way. Just be detached and let it all be as it is. Do nothing. It’s all good. It’s all nothing. As if our ability to act is not also part of Totality! And as if “nothing” were some nihilistic void.

Enlightenment is not like a sudden realization of something mysterious. Enlightenment is nothing but awakening from illusions and returning to the reality of life.

--Zen teacher Uchiyama

Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings.

--Zen Master Dogen

Enlightenment is nothing more than this: to be fully present, to see the grasping nature of our own minds, and not to act out of that grasping. It’s to see ourselves not as separate, not as lacking, not as in charge, not as weak and helpless.

--Zen teacher Steve Hagen

If you believe that there is something lacking, it is not quite so. But if you think there is nothing to do, nothing needed, that is not quite so.

--Zen teacher Elihu Genmyo Smith

The surprise within the surprise of every new discovery is that there is ever more to be discovered.

--Brother David Steindl-Rast, Catholic monk

[divinity]

What is it which someone who claims to be enlightened or "realized" has realized? That which we look for, we find. I think that preconception is a roadblock. Can we become enlightened whilst still living in the human form?

[Peter]

Aug 26, 2009 16:15:37 GMT -5 divinity said:

What is it which someone who claims to be enlightened or "realized" has realized?

It is "that about which nothing can be said" (Wittgenstein). And yet, here we all are.

That which we look for, we find.

If it's there to be found and if we know what we're looking for. Of course, sometimes people find things they're not looking for, and sometimes don't know what it is they've found.

I think that preconception is a roadblock.

Yes, absolutely. I lump that in with "Not seeing things as they ARE".

Can we become enlightened whilst still living in the human form?

We can try, anyway. Anything else you'd rather be doing?

EDIT: And he SCORES another 42 in the timestamp. I swear I don't (consciously) try for those.

[lightmystic]

They've realized that all concepts about who they are are not who they are. They've realized that they ARE that which cannot be said. "That which cannot be said" is an experience that is not finite, not separate, and is everpresent. It's always been there, and we've always been it, not limited by anything, not separated by anything. Enlightenment is realizing that on the deepest, most fundamental level.

In what way is that a preconception? If anything, it's recognizing that what's in the way are preconceptions borne of resistance, of not wanting to look. If one were willing to look, then they would not be preconceptions, they would just be innocent experience. And that's why I've noticed that anything that appears threatening on a deep level IS just a misconception. That doesn't mean it doesn't still have to be examined to find that's true on the deepest level. But that has always been the case.

Enlightenment can 100% definitely be had while in a human body. In fact, if the Vedic Texts are correct, one can only become Enlightened in a human body. That sounds about right to me. I can explain why if you like, but I won't go into it otherwise.

Aug 26, 2009 16:15:37 GMT -5 divinity said:

What is it which someone who claims to be enlightened or "realized" has realized? That which we look for, we find. I think that preconception is a roadblock. Can we become enlightened whilst still living in the human form?

[divinity]

In my life I have discovered that if something looks bad, it is my own perception which needs investigating. When we are in the human physical body is the only time we NEED to be enlightened. To me, pure energy IS enlightenment.

[lightmystic]

Interesting, I find, from my experience of other realms and my memories of being there, that there is actually an intricate system with people of various levels of understanding of their own lack of individuality. To assume that everyone is completely content out of a human body is missing large sections of Creation. I'm not sure where you got that idea. Further, it's actually very transformative to realize that there is more. Those that are stuck but do not realize there is more may be content with that stuckness, but that does not mean they are not suffering. I was content with suffering when I was very young. Later I was discontent with it. It required looking at those things in order to resolve them. A long process, but it did work. There was nothing worse than contentment with stuckness. At least, that was the case for me, even if discontent with that stuckness was more painful.

I find that energy is what we are. It's not really even energy because it's technically more fundamental even than that. It's what gives rise to energy. It's undivided.

It's the end of ever having a need that could not be fulfilled. If there is something that feels confining, it's because it has not been recognized to be infinite. To recognize everything, fundamentally, as infinite is a peace that cannot be described. And it never goes away. And it ever deepens.

We already are that Infinite. Not energy, something more primordial even (in my experience), but contains all things, including energy. But it's not that we BECOME infinite. It's just letting go of misconceptions that we are something other than that. And that direct experiential recognition on the deepest level of that Infiniteness brings the openness to the fulfillment of life.

So I'm not disagreeing with the looking at conceptions. That IS the process. I'm just suggesting the result to be much bigger than what you have stated. It's not my opinion, it's my experience.
It's much more than anyone could possible realize. And then it gets bigger.

Aug 27, 2009 12:59:05 GMT -5 divinity said:

In my life I have discovered that if something looks bad, it is my own perception which needs investigating. When we are in the human physical body is the only time we NEED to be enlightened. To me, pure energy IS enlightenment.

[zendancer]

Peter: I, too, read the entire section by Joan, and it is quite good. She is an excellent writer and she points out lots of things that many teachers fail to point out. As for her "line in the sand," I have a few reservations. I have a friend who always wanted to find God. After he found what he was looking for (on a particular date at a particular time), he still had other questions. After he found answers to those questions, he felt that his search had ended and he was free (on a particular date at a particular time). My first unity consciousness experience occurred on a particular date at a particular time. Other insight experiences happened in the same way. My last question was answered on a particular date at a particular time, and after that experience, I was free. My thirty-five year search for understanding came to an end. Of course, it had nothing to do with "me." Beingness, as a particular body/mind, got lost in the mind, but also found its way out of the mind. It woke up to Itself.

There may be people for whom things happen more gradually and without experiences that a mathematician would call "discontinuous," but I don't met any of them. I simply know lots of people on this path who had discrete experiences after which their understanding changed dramatically.

Joan, however, is correct in saying that the idea of permanence is just another idea to see through. Never say never. Who we are is mysterious and unpredictable. One guy who had a huge awakening experience and seemed very clear at one point later got attached to the idea of "levels of enlightenment" and began using crystals to "evaluate" other people's spiritual state. No matter what level he rated other people, he was sure that if they picked him as a teacher, he could raise their level. LOL. Perhaps needless to say, the more he got into this delusion, the faster people ran away from him.

As for Divinity's last three questions, I think LM answered them pretty succinctly. Nice thread.

[lightmystic]

It's always been a fascination for me how it can be difficult for people to know what has been a temporary experience vs. a ever deepening recognition of that which never changes.

All can think to chalk it up to is as a thing that comes from western culture where the belief that if a big flashy happened to you, then that must be it. It's hard for them to realize and accept that any big flashy is just another experience. And all experiences can come, go, and change form. That is their nature. The only thing that can provide any consistency of experience comes from a constant recognition of that which doesn't change, which is not an experience as such. And even the experience of the recognition of that changes over time....

Aug 29, 2009 14:50:59 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Peter: I, too, read the entire section by Joan, and it is quite good. She is an excellent writer and she points out lots of things that many teachers fail to point out. As for her "line in the sand," I have a few reservations. I have a friend who always wanted to find God. After he found what he was looking for (on a particular date at a particular time), he still had other questions. After he found answers to those questions, he felt that his search had ended and he was free (on a particular date at a particular time). My first unity consciousness experience occurred on a particular date at a particular time. Other insight experiences happened in the same way. My last question was answered on a particular date at a particular time, and after that experience, I was free. My thirty-five year search for understanding came to an end. Of course, it had nothing to do with "me." Beingness, as a particular body/mind, got lost in the mind, but also found its way out of the mind. It woke up to Itself.

There may be people for whom things happen more gradually and without experiences that a mathematician would call "discontinuous," but I don't met any of them. I simply know lots of people on this path who had discrete experiences after which their understanding changed dramatically.

Joan, however, is correct in saying that the idea of permanence is just another idea to see through. Never say never. Who we are is mysterious and unpredictable. One guy who had a huge awakening experience and seemed very clear at one point later got attached to the idea of "levels of enlightenment" and began using crystals to "evaluate" other people's spiritual state. No matter what level he rated other people, he was sure that if they picked him as a teacher, he could raise their level. LOL. Perhaps needless to say, the more he got into this delusion, the faster people ran away from him.

As for Divinity's last three questions, I think LM answered them pretty succinctly. Nice thread.

[zendancer]

LM: So true. However, I think the usual big bang experience aftermath is pretty common in every culture, not just in the West. Seemingly out of the blue a person suddenly has a unity conscious experience, acquires some insight, and feels fantastic. Sometimes the experience lasts a long time--days, weeks, or even years. All worries disappear and the person lives without reflection for a while. Many mysterious things happen during this period and they know that they are living in a heaven on earth. Coming down from such a unified state is a real bummer and the individual starts wondering, "How can I get back to such a wonderful place?" In fact, for a lot of people this is where the spiritual search really begins in earnest. Prior to the initial breakthrough, they had no idea that such a state of being was even possible--that such an extraordinary state could be experienced by a human being. Prior to such experiences, many people have not even realized that they were searching for anything, but afterwards.....whoa! They then begin searching in earnest for the secret formula of how to reaquire the state of mind that they think they've lost (not yet realizing who it is that had the experience in the first place). Because they are still intensely attached to the idea they they are separately-existing entities, they set off trying to "become unified with God" or "get enlightened." The question they rarely ask themselves is, "What is it that thinks it needs to get enlightened or become unified?" Many people start meditating and trying all kinds of strategies to accomplish the hypothetical unification--not realizing that who they are is always unified. This process is understandable given the initial delusion, and at least meditation practice quiets the mind and creates a bit of mental space. If they're lucky, they eventually meet a teacher who says, "Meditation practice is not necessary for finding the truth." This is usually a big shock, and many people refuse to believe it. For those who accept this teaching, the next thing they need to hear is, "Who you are is NOT who you think you are. You are NOT a human being or any other kind of entity. You are The Living Truth and what you are looking for is always in front of your eyes here and now. There is no past or future. Simply look at what is looking." Hearing such words won't guarantee that they'll wake up, of course, but at least it will focus their attention in the right direction. What happens next is a mystery, or grace, or whatever we might want to call it, but at some point they suddenly realize who they are, and they discover that there had never been a separate entity capable of getting enlightened. The whole enlightenment thing had been a fantastic illusion--a joke, and the joke was on the one who they had thought they were!

Several years ago I met a woman who had had a fantastic enlightenment experience when she was in college. She didn't know what had happened to her, but she eventually gave up trying to find anyone else who might understand. She called it her "open vision," and she lived in a very enlightened state for many years. After several years of happiness and problem-free living, she went to graduate school and gradually lost her enlightenment (that's what too much thinking will do for you--LOL). Twenty-five years later she met a Zen Master who confirmed her initial experience and encouraged her to start meditating. When I met her, she was in her seventies. She was practicing Zen like crazy and still hoping for some future return to her earlier state of mind. She died in her eighties without ever realizing the truth.

I suspect that this is the most common and most natural result of having a big bang experience. It is both a blessing and an impetus (for those who eventually get free) and a curse and a barrier (for those who don't). It is very difficult for most people to accept that this moment, with all its seeming problems and ordinariness, is just as much the truth of our being as a big bang experience.