The Matrix: Waking Up vs. Falling Asleep

[inavalan]

Jun 16, 2020 21:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 16, 2020 20:51:46 GMT -5 inavalan said:

You're right, that is a dismissive binning of dreaming, and it denotes not understanding what dreaming is. Dreaming is no more an illusion than the awake life is. (This is an 8 year old thread!)

thanks for your interest.

Are you familiar with this dream/dreamer spiritual metaphor? If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the metaphor is Hindu.

To elaborate, the metaphor is of the material world, time and space, as it appears to us. The sense of reality of a person who mistakes their personal identity within that appearing material world as an answer to the existential question, is like a dreamer, in a dream.

A modernized version of it is the existential speculation that we're actually characters in a sophisticated simulation being run by some race of creatures who are obviously quite beyond our capabilities. You might have already known this - I don't mean to presume, but - that's how it relates to the OP.

I'm not familiar with that Hindu metaphor, but I heard of Chuang Tzu's butterfly dream:

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things."

I'm not familiar with those movies either, but I read about the "brain in a vat" hypothesis.

I believe that both us-in-our-dreams and us-awake are focuses of awareness into specific ranges of the wider reality. I don't believe in the "simulation being run by some race of creatures", but in this physical reality being a school-lab where we practice reality creation under our inner guides' supervision, each one of us on their own bench. I believe that during our dreaming we attend a school-class, and our dreams are the symbolic translations of the lessons taught there. I believe there is no objective reality, but a reality blueprint we subconsciously co-agree, then each one of us creates their own individual reality, which amounts to "parallel universes". (in brief)

[laughter]

Jun 16, 2020 21:40:15 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jun 16, 2020 21:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

thanks for your interest.

Are you familiar with this dream/dreamer spiritual metaphor? If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the metaphor is Hindu.

To elaborate, the metaphor is of the material world, time and space, as it appears to us. The sense of reality of a person who mistakes their personal identity within that appearing material world as an answer to the existential question, is like a dreamer, in a dream.

A modernized version of it is the existential speculation that we're actually characters in a sophisticated simulation being run by some race of creatures who are obviously quite beyond our capabilities. You might have already known this - I don't mean to presume, but - that's how it relates to the OP.

I'm not familiar with that Hindu metaphor, but I heard of Chuang Tzu's butterfly dream:

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things."

I'm not familiar with those movies either, but I read about the "brain in a vat" hypothesis.

I believe that both us-in-our-dreams and us-awake are focuses of awareness into specific ranges of the wider reality. I don't believe in the "simulation being run by some race of creatures", but in this physical reality being a school-lab where we practice reality creation under our inner guides' supervision, each one of us on their own bench. I believe that during our dreaming we attend a school-class, and our dreams are the symbolic translations of the lessons taught there. I believe there is no objective reality, but a reality blueprint we subconsciously co-agree, then each one of us creates their own individual reality, which amounts to "parallel universes". (in brief)

The butterfly story definitely gets to the crux of the issue - hope you find some value in exposure to Vishnu's dream. For me, there's quite a depth to that notion and the scripture. I was first introduced to it by Carl Sagan.

The question of purpose is an interesting one. It's a form of the existential question. In terms of the notion of reality, and how creation happens, what I like to say, is that reality is neither subjective, nor objective. This can be thought of as an example of neti-neti. We can relate it to the dream metaphor by recognizing that appearances tend to appear to be sometimes subjective, sometimes objective, but that the answer to the existential question isn't ultimately found in any appearance, nor in the way that appearances appear.

[stardustpilgrim]

Jun 16, 2020 21:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 16, 2020 20:51:46 GMT -5 inavalan said:

You're right, that is a dismissive binning of dreaming, and it denotes not understanding what dreaming is. Dreaming is no more an illusion than the awake life is. (This is an 8 year old thread!)

thanks for your interest.

Are you familiar with this dream/dreamer spiritual metaphor? If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the metaphor is Hindu.

To elaborate, the metaphor is of the material world, time and space, as it appears to us. The sense of reality of a person who mistakes their personal identity within that appearing material world as an answer to the existential question, is like a dreamer, in a dream.

A modernized version of it is the existential speculation that we're actually characters in a sophisticated simulation being run by some race of creatures who are obviously quite beyond our capabilities. You might have already known this - I don't mean to presume, but - that's how it relates to the OP.

[amit]

Jun 17, 2020 7:35:19 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 16, 2020 21:06:20 GMT -5 laughter said:

thanks for your interest.

Are you familiar with this dream/dreamer spiritual metaphor? If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the metaphor is Hindu.

To elaborate, the metaphor is of the material world, time and space, as it appears to us. The sense of reality of a person who mistakes their personal identity within that appearing material world as an answer to the existential question, is like a dreamer, in a dream.

A modernized version of it is the existential speculation that we're actually characters in a sophisticated simulation being run by some race of creatures who are obviously quite beyond our capabilities. You might have already known this - I don't mean to presume, but - that's how it relates to the OP.

For the nonduality concept to have an impact (resonance), the madness of rejecting the evidence of our own eyes, that the many separate things are in reality merely a manifestation of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, can surprisingly result in the end of the search without any further understanding or experience.

[laughter]

Jun 19, 2020 7:26:45 GMT -5 amit said:

Jun 17, 2020 7:35:19 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

For the nonduality concept to have an impact (resonance), the madness of rejecting the evidence of our own eyes, that the many separate things are in reality merely a manifestation of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, can surprisingly result in the end of the search without any further understanding or experience.