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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2012 11:19:31 GMT -5
porto, the seal was really really funny man.
Question: are the dream and the dreamer one?
Anwar answers "yes"
Bobo answers "no"
Murray answers "maybe"
Is Anwar wrong?
Is Bobo right?
Is Murray actually Jesus in disguise?
I AM .... not wrong
YOU ARE ... not wrong
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Post by Portto on Dec 19, 2012 11:20:56 GMT -5
Greetings.. If we are to summarize the thread so far: 1. Topo started a thread asking for a vote on whether or not Neo woke up from the dream 2. Some analyzed very nicely the Matrix movie 3. Some suggested that the dream and the dreamer are one and the same 4. Tzu insists that we shouldn't say "Life is a dream" and we shouldn't "ignore the problems of the world" It seems to me that Tzu is actively looking for people claiming that "Life is a dream." Hi Portto: It does seem that way to you, doesn't it? but, it seems to me that the 'dream' analogy is fair game if the waking/sleeping subject is to be thoroughly analyzed, even in the context of The Matrix.. who's awake and who's asleep, who's dreaming and who's actually evolving.. The claims will be made by proponents of different beliefs/understandings.. aside from poetic license and theatrics, The Matrix asks the fundamental question who's awake and who's asleep, but.. more importantly, who knows the difference.. Be well.. Those who claim and those who know are all the same "existence" that I am. |
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Post by Portto on Dec 19, 2012 11:22:42 GMT -5
porto, the seal was really really funny man. Question: are the dream and the dreamer one? Anwar answers "yes" Bobo answers "no" Murray answers "maybe" Is Anwar wrong? Is Bobo right? Is Murray actually Jesus in disguise? I AM .... not wrong YOU ARE ... not wrong The dream and the dreamer are both imagined! ;D |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2012 11:31:42 GMT -5
porto, the seal was really really funny man. Question: are the dream and the dreamer one? Anwar answers "yes" Bobo answers "no" Murray answers "maybe" Is Anwar wrong? Is Bobo right? Is Murray actually Jesus in disguise? I AM .... not wrong YOU ARE ... not wrong The dream and the dreamer are both imagined! ;D And you are ... not wrong.  |
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 19, 2012 11:47:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. porto, the seal was really really funny man. Question: are the dream and the dreamer one? Anwar answers "yes" Bobo answers "no" Murray answers "maybe" Is Anwar wrong? Is Bobo right? Is Murray actually Jesus in disguise? I AM .... not wrong YOU ARE ... not wrong The dream and the dreamer are both imagined! ;D The dream and the dreamer are descriptions of experiences.. your dream and my dream are different, as the dreamers are different, too.. one existence, many manifestations.. Be well.. |
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Post by Portto on Dec 19, 2012 12:18:34 GMT -5
Greetings.. The dream and the dreamer are both imagined! ;D The dream and the dreamer are descriptions of experiences.. your dream and my dream are different, as the dreamers are different, too.. one existence, many manifestations.. Be well.. Descriptions are mind-shadows of the one actual manifestation. Same goes for differences. Nothing wrong with a game of shadows, although it can get pretty scary and/or pretty exhilarating at times. |
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 19, 2012 12:59:42 GMT -5
Greetngs.. Greetings.. The dream and the dreamer are descriptions of experiences.. your dream and my dream are different, as the dreamers are different, too.. one existence, many manifestations.. Be well.. Descriptions are mind-shadows of the one actual manifestation. Same goes for differences. Nothing wrong with a game of shadows, although it can get pretty scary and/or pretty exhilarating at times. Hi Portto: You are persistent in your imaginings.. you say "mind shadows", i say "experiences".. mind is all we have, the totality of existence plays-out on that common medium, 'mind'.. i understand the inclination to tell stories 'about' experiences, to embellish one's delight in cinematic accomplishment, supposing it has real meaning, the allure of camaraderie, a 'brotherhood (sisters included) of the Matrix'... If this thread is about the Matrix, i should take my leave, i had assumed it was about the actuality that the Matrix pointed to.. awake vs asleep.. but, if it's a film critic's philosophizing session, i'm not interested.. What is still present, still actually happening, when the mind is still and silent.. Be well.. |
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Post by Portto on Dec 19, 2012 14:23:58 GMT -5
Greetngs.. Descriptions are mind-shadows of the one actual manifestation. Same goes for differences. Nothing wrong with a game of shadows, although it can get pretty scary and/or pretty exhilarating at times. Hi Portto: You are persistent in your imaginings.. you say "mind shadows", i say "experiences".. mind is all we have, the totality of existence plays-out on that common medium, 'mind'.. i understand the inclination to tell stories 'about' experiences, to embellish one's delight in cinematic accomplishment, supposing it has real meaning, the allure of camaraderie, a 'brotherhood (sisters included) of the Matrix'... If this thread is about the Matrix, i should take my leave, i had assumed it was about the actuality that the Matrix pointed to.. awake vs asleep.. but, if it's a film critic's philosophizing session, i'm not interested.. What is still present, still actually happening, when the mind is still and silent.. Be well.. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 19, 2012 14:46:40 GMT -5
^^^ @ Laughter: that's a full-fledged research article! yes, well it documents a public, multi-year conversation. Where there once was one doubt that apparently caused questions, now there is one certainty and a thousand doubts, with no questions behind them. And this is peace. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 21, 2012 22:27:11 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Dec 21, 2012 23:25:30 GMT -5
(-- holy sh!t someone actually read that thing --)
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Post by Portto on Dec 23, 2012 12:58:35 GMT -5
[youtube]I thought the movies failed to deliver on the message of "waking up" when Neo never seriously explored the possibility/likelihood that he "woke up" into a fail-safe program. Since he rejected the first story for not having enough excitement and drama in it, he was given a second story where he "wakes up" from the first to be a hero and saviour of all the people trapped in the first story. He couldn't buy into the first story but he bought the second story hook line and sinker because it pandered to his ego, his need to be important. There were some faint suggestions that the second story was also a dream, e.g. when Neo stopped the sentinels in the 'real' world by waving his hand. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 16, 2020 19:50:43 GMT -5
Before I answer, is the distinction you're referring to between the dream and the dreamer? Yes, there is no actual distinction between the dreamer and the dream. Appearances appear AS that to which they appear. The perceiver, the perceiving and the perceived are the same. The difficulty is just in mind going mad with it's butcher blade. They are just three ways of viewing that which IS. Ultimately, all boundaries collapse. BTW, to call something a dream is not to dismiss it. There isn't something else, and so nothing to dismiss in favor of. But isn't referring to "the dream" as "an illusion" the same as dismissing it? |
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Post by inavalan on Jun 16, 2020 20:51:46 GMT -5
Yes, there is no actual distinction between the dreamer and the dream. Appearances appear AS that to which they appear. The perceiver, the perceiving and the perceived are the same. The difficulty is just in mind going mad with it's butcher blade. They are just three ways of viewing that which IS. Ultimately, all boundaries collapse. BTW, to call something a dream is not to dismiss it. There isn't something else, and so nothing to dismiss in favor of. But isn't referring to "the dream" as "an illusion" the same as dismissing it? You're right, that is a dismissive binning of dreaming, and it denotes not understanding what dreaming is. Dreaming is no more an illusion than the awake life is. (This is an 8 year old thread!) |
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Post by laughter on Jun 16, 2020 21:06:20 GMT -5
But isn't referring to "the dream" as "an illusion" the same as dismissing it? You're right, that is a dismissive binning of dreaming, and it denotes not understanding what dreaming is. Dreaming is no more an illusion than the awake life is. (This is an 8 year old thread!) thanks for your interest. Are you familiar with this dream/dreamer spiritual metaphor? If I'm not mistaken, the origin of the metaphor is Hindu. To elaborate, the metaphor is of the material world, time and space, as it appears to us. The sense of reality of a person who mistakes their personal identity within that appearing material world as an answer to the existential question, is like a dreamer, in a dream. A modernized version of it is the existential speculation that we're actually characters in a sophisticated simulation being run by some race of creatures who are obviously quite beyond our capabilities. You might have already known this - I don't mean to presume, but - that's how it relates to the OP. |
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