|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 19:01:36 GMT -5
It's only odd to you because you have clearly never experienced it. Everyone keeps saying that I have a self that is upset at the loss of a self, but that's really just your own projections, because for me, it does feel as if I am non-existant & not real & not present in the world as a self, particularly in my more dissociated moments when I've been on the computer for an hour or more. Midnight: I suspect that you've described your experience quite accurately. I also suspect that almost no one on the forum has experienced exactly what you've been describing. Everyone wants to help, but because no one has been through exactly the same thing, everyone is simply offering guesses concerning what might alleviate the mind-generated fear. I suspect that most people on this path have incremental experiences and realizations that allow the mind to gradually adjust to a process of progressive disillusionment rather than a falling-off-a-cliff-into-emptiness kind of experience. More than 25 years ago, about fifteen minutes into an initial experience of cosmic consciousness there was a point when everything I looked at began to dissolve and/or disappear (something commonly reported by schizophrenics). In retrospect it seems clear that something was happening to the body's normal mode of perception, but it was quite unnerving to watch the center of a man's body begin disappearing even though I was staring straight at it! I had to make a strong mental effort to hold onto reality and bring back the missing part of the man's torso, but the experience was quite frightening. I had the sense that if I didn't run away from what was happening, I was going to be plunged into some unfathomable emptiness and totally lose touch with reality. Fortunately, perhaps, after literally running away from the scene and after another five minutes or so I suddenly snapped back to "normal," and the perceptual instability instantly ceased. I have no idea what would have happened if the body/mind had plunged into emptiness or a total absence of selfhood at that point in time, but it might have resulted in exactly the kind of thing that you have described. As it happened, that initial experience (and the accompanying realizations) was only the first collapse of many other thought structures that supported the consensus trance of ordinary reality. Many more would follow, and by the time the illusion of selfhood finally collapsed it was a relatively undramatic event--a bit like an older child suddenly realizing who Santa Claus must be ("Well, of course! How stupid of me not have seen this sooner.") ha ha. When S. Segal (who was diagnosed as disassociated by many psychiatrists and who bought into that story totally) told Jean Klein, "There's no me. There used to be one, but now there isn't anymore," he replied, "Well, that's perfect." Segal said, "But Jean, why is there so much anxiety?" He replied, "You must stop the part of the mind that constantly keeps trying to look back at the experience." Segal wrote, "There was a part of the mind--perhaps what we call the self-reflective or introspective function--that kept turning to look and, finding emptiness, kept sending the message that something was wrong. It was a reflex that had developed during the years of living in the illusion of individuality, a reflex we commonly consider necessary to know ourselves. We 'look within' repeatedly to determine what we think and feel, to make a study of ourselves and track our states of mind and heart. Now that there was no longer an 'in' to look 'into,' the self-reflective reflex was adrift but it persisted. It kept turning in and turning in, unable to come to terms with the fact that there was no 'in' anymore, only emptiness." The main thing to realize is that there is no "in" and there never has been. Other people are under the illusion that there is an "in" but it is just an illusion. There was never a Midnight/Patrick in any sense whatsoever. There was only and always just THIS--a seamlessly unified field of being--, and it is neither empty nor full. It is what it is. It is what is happening right now. The body/mind fell off of a psychological cliff when it did the Mooji exercise, and the imagined person got more than was bargained for. Most people don't fall off the cliff all at once; they stumble downhill gradually, so the shock isn't so great. I doubt that there is any going back to a conventional sense of selfhood for the body/mind, and I suspect that sooner or later the body/mind will accept this. TRF once described the difference between the personal and the impersonal perspective very succinctly. Is the world seen as if by a person located behind the eyes, or is it perceived by a field of awareness not locatable in any specific sense? If it is the latter, then you might want to try meditation as a way to put the mind at rest and end its patholigization and rejection of what is actual. fWIW, it's an activity that helped Segal come to terms with her similar situation. We can experience anything....
|
|
|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 19:05:50 GMT -5
Oh, yes, it's possible to see without your personal filters. In your case in particular, it would be necessary to give less power to feeling, or at least be clear about where your feelings come from so that they don't manipulate you. I don't quite know what you mean by 'personal filters' but as I said, if we are talking about the impersonal position, then we are in the context of individuality anyway, and therefore there is always going to be individual filter. I also don't understand how you have concluded that James isn't clear about where his feelings come from or that he gives too much power to feeling. Surely not on what he just said? If not, how does that fit in with 'coming empty'? Thank you for looking. I examine how I relate to life, be it by observing my feelings or my thoughts. I don't dismiss them or attach to them.
|
|
|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 19:24:08 GMT -5
Yes i agree that impersonal doesn't imply lack of a perspective and that was my point. "Coming empty" however, seems unlikely to me unless you come down with Dimenzia. Oh, yes, it's possible to see without your personal filters. In your case in particular, it would be necessary to give less power to feeling, or at least be clear about where your feelings come from so that they don't manipulate you. When I look, ever so closely, I don't see the imbalance of power toward feelings. I don't even see a source for them. They seem ever so natural.. What you see here is feelings and life expressing itself in a unique way thru me....compassionately and respectfully and lovingly and kindly. If you think it is not balanced then you have compared it to something to make that judgement. Perhaps your own thoughts about feelings. I try not to do that.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 17, 2012 19:27:34 GMT -5
Btw, thanks for the replies, it's been very educational, especially Zendancer and Andrewtemp Midnight, Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge all this non-dual non-will that seems ever available here. This is the four-letter L-word in action dude. Whadya' think topo', a sign of "progress"? Listen Midnight, please promise me that when there's no more Midnight that you'll come back here and set me well if I ever meditate my way to the edge of one of those big bad face-melty super-voids, ok?
|
|
|
Post by relinquish on Dec 17, 2012 19:53:31 GMT -5
How do I know that the void you are speaking of is the same one I speak about? Cos maybe you are talking about a void that doesn't feel like one is drifting into madness, while the one I seem to sense feels like total loss of mental stability and a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain. Are we talking about the same void? An utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description? For a 'void', what you are discribing sounds VERY packed full of content. "One is drifting into madness", "total loss of mental stability", "a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain" and "an utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description" are ALL thoughts, not descriptions of the void. The void remains forever untouched by them. The void is simply the inseparable opposite of form, change and movement. None of them could appear to exist without the void. In the same way, the void could not appear to exist without them. Existence itself is eternally neither form nor void. You are, and have always been THAT.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2012 19:54:09 GMT -5
Oh, yes, it's possible to see without your personal filters. In your case in particular, it would be necessary to give less power to feeling, or at least be clear about where your feelings come from so that they don't manipulate you. When I look, ever so closely, I don't see the imbalance of power toward feelings. I don't even see a source for them. They seem ever so natural.. What you see here is feelings and life expressing itself in a unique way thru me....compassionately and respectfully and lovingly and kindly. If you think it is not balanced then you have compared it to something to make that judgement. Perhaps your own thoughts about feelings. I try not to do that. I wouldn't suggest that you don't try or that you don't look, only that you don't always see. If you don't see a source for your feelings, it's because that source remains hidden from your conscious awareness. Feelings can indeed be very simple, like the delight of the infant in sparkly things. No deep contemplation required for that, but also no mystery as to the source. Adults are more complex and most feeling is formed within a complex of thought, belief and imagination. Much of that feeling content is not understood, and yet it is pulled toward us or pushed away as though it was endowed with it's own independent power to please or to punish.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2012 20:01:32 GMT -5
How do I know that the void you are speaking of is the same one I speak about? Cos maybe you are talking about a void that doesn't feel like one is drifting into madness, while the one I seem to sense feels like total loss of mental stability and a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain. Are we talking about the same void? An utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description? For a 'void', what you are discribing sounds VERY packed full of content. "One is drifting into madness", "total loss of mental stability", "a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain" and "an utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description" are ALL thoughts, not descriptions of the void. The void remains forever untouched by them. The void is simply the inseparable opposite of form, change and movement. None of them could appear to exist without the void. In the same way, the void could not appear to exist without them. Existence itself is eternally neither form nor void. You are, and have always been THAT. Yup, yup. The emptiness of the void can be filled with personal terror, but then it's not the void anymore. It's just being terrified of losing stuff that never existed to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by topology on Dec 17, 2012 20:10:46 GMT -5
Complaining about not existing is precisely what keeps recharging the sense of self. You get on the computer for an hour or more and you forget to complain or have self referencing thoughts. Things get quiet. Quiet leads to fear. You return to find solutions to your problem because suffering might be painful but at least it's not as bad as falling into the void right? Things get quiet I guess yeah, but it's more like things stop existing. When I come off the computer I feel awful. I forget what I've been doing all day and I need to snap myself back into reality to become less of a walking zombie. How do I know that the void you are speaking of is the same one I speak about? Cos maybe you are talking about a void that doesn't feel like one is drifting into madness, while the one I seem to sense feels like total loss of mental stability and a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain. Are we talking about the same void? An utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description? I feel like when I am not thinking about myself I am drifting into annihilation. Btw, thanks for the replies, it's been very educational, especially Zendancer and Andrewtemp There is nothing to fear from the void, that is the mind resisting becoming quiet. Quiet the mind. Let go of the resistance. What is, IS. What you are cannot die, only what you imagine can die, and that is a good thing to let die. While you are seeking clarity the external details tend to go to hell until you find the ground of being. Quiet the mind and move forward with a quiet mind and all will sort itself out.
|
|
|
Post by silver on Dec 17, 2012 20:13:01 GMT -5
How do I know that the void you are speaking of is the same one I speak about? Cos maybe you are talking about a void that doesn't feel like one is drifting into madness, while the one I seem to sense feels like total loss of mental stability and a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain. Are we talking about the same void? An utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description? For a 'void', what you are discribing sounds VERY packed full of content. "One is drifting into madness", "total loss of mental stability", "a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain" and "an utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description" are ALL thoughts, not descriptions of the void. The void remains forever untouched by them. The void is simply the inseparable opposite of form, change and movement. None of them could appear to exist without the void. In the same way, the void could not appear to exist without them. Existence itself is eternally neither form nor void. You are, and have always been THAT. Jeezus, he should try his hand at poetry! Midnight - it sounds like you'd be a natural at it.
|
|
|
Post by topology on Dec 17, 2012 20:14:16 GMT -5
Btw, thanks for the replies, it's been very educational, especially Zendancer and Andrewtemp Midnight, Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge all this non-dual non-will that seems ever available here. This is the four-letter L-word in action dude. Whadya' think topo', a sign of "progress"? Listen Midnight, please promise me that when there's no more Midnight that you'll come back here and set me well if I ever meditate my way to the edge of one of those big bad face-melty super-voids, ok? Haven't seen a tantrum this time around, midnight sounds a little more present and able to consider others input a little more than when he was here several months ago. I see relative progress.
|
|
|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 20:21:29 GMT -5
When I look, ever so closely, I don't see the imbalance of power toward feelings. I don't even see a source for them. They seem ever so natural.. What you see here is feelings and life expressing itself in a unique way thru me....compassionately and respectfully and lovingly and kindly. If you think it is not balanced then you have compared it to something to make that judgement. Perhaps your own thoughts about feelings. I try not to do that. I wouldn't suggest that you don't try or that you don't look, only that you don't always see. If you don't see a source for your feelings, it's because that source remains hidden from your conscious awareness. Feelings can indeed be very simple, like the delight of the infant in sparkly things. No deep contemplation required for that, but also no mystery as to the source. Adults are more complex and most feeling is formed within a complex of thought, belief and imagination. Much of that feeling content is not understood, and yet it is pulled toward us or pushed away as though it was endowed with it's own independent power to please or to punish. If there's something for me to see, then I will see it. The fact is that I don't and while I am open to some unconscious awareness of the source of my feelings, nothing surfaces. For me to question my feelings beyond what I observe would be an attempt to question feelings in general. I've done that and while I admit that feeling are awesome, I am open to there being another type of feeling. I am open for anything including that everything is quite alright the way they are in this regards. Again, if there is something amiss, I will see it......... What makes you believe you see something that I don't? Have you ever been wrong about others? I have been.
|
|
|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 20:27:11 GMT -5
Things get quiet I guess yeah, but it's more like things stop existing. When I come off the computer I feel awful. I forget what I've been doing all day and I need to snap myself back into reality to become less of a walking zombie. How do I know that the void you are speaking of is the same one I speak about? Cos maybe you are talking about a void that doesn't feel like one is drifting into madness, while the one I seem to sense feels like total loss of mental stability and a murky pool of suppressed emotional pain. Are we talking about the same void? An utterly depressing blackness bleak beyond description? I feel like when I am not thinking about myself I am drifting into annihilation. Btw, thanks for the replies, it's been very educational, especially Zendancer and Andrewtemp There is nothing to fear from the void, that is the mind resisting becoming quiet. Quiet the mind. Let go of the resistance. What is, IS. What you are cannot die, only what you imagine can die, and that is a good thing to let die. While you are seeking clarity the external details tend to go to hell until you find the ground of being. Quiet the mind and move forward with a quiet mind and all will sort itself out. Speaking of myself, what was seen as terrifying was the truth that there is no god AND me. That there was noone watching over me or my children or life itself. It looks like the void but it really is the emptiness of life. The seeing that life does not care or not care. This was terrifying to me but has become simply what is. It also gave way to the observing that life does it's caring thru me. It fills itself, creates itself, thru me. It's not about quieting the mind. There is nothing we can do to see what is. It happens.
|
|
|
Post by topology on Dec 17, 2012 20:49:21 GMT -5
There is nothing to fear from the void, that is the mind resisting becoming quiet. Quiet the mind. Let go of the resistance. What is, IS. What you are cannot die, only what you imagine can die, and that is a good thing to let die. While you are seeking clarity the external details tend to go to hell until you find the ground of being. Quiet the mind and move forward with a quiet mind and all will sort itself out. Speaking of myself, what was seen as terrifying was the truth that there is no god AND me. That there was noone watching over me or my children or life itself. It looks like the void but it really is the emptiness of life. The seeing that life does not care or not care. This was terrifying to me but has become simply what is. It also gave way to the observing that life does it's caring thru me. It fills itself, creates itself, thru me. It's not about quieting the mind. There is nothing we can do to see what is. It happens. Are you saying quieting the mind is not a beneficial endeavor?
|
|
|
Post by whiteshaman on Dec 17, 2012 20:58:45 GMT -5
Speaking of myself, what was seen as terrifying was the truth that there is no god AND me. That there was noone watching over me or my children or life itself. It looks like the void but it really is the emptiness of life. The seeing that life does not care or not care. This was terrifying to me but has become simply what is. It also gave way to the observing that life does it's caring thru me. It fills itself, creates itself, thru me. It's not about quieting the mind. There is nothing we can do to see what is. It happens. Are you saying quieting the mind is not a beneficial endeavor? No, I'm saying that my attempts to quiet the mind have been dwarfted by the mind being quieted. My point is it happens. Just sharing. It's like, I have found that I cannot successfullly 'try' an quiet the mind. I try not to come to any conclusions why and as life goes on, the mind becomes quiet thru awareness happening...also without trying.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 17, 2012 21:17:00 GMT -5
Midnight, Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge all this non-dual non-will that seems ever available here. This is the four-letter L-word in action dude. Whadya' think topo', a sign of "progress"? Listen Midnight, please promise me that when there's no more Midnight that you'll come back here and set me well if I ever meditate my way to the edge of one of those big bad face-melty super-voids, ok? Haven't seen a tantrum this time around, midnight sounds a little more present and able to consider others input a little more than when he was here several months ago. I see relative progress. Yes, I agree. On his behalf, thanks for the apparent effort man! If there was someone left over there in Midnightland ... he'd owe you one!
|
|