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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 19:18:35 GMT -5
Nobody ever said it was. This is just how the gerbils spin. We could say the whole point of this forum is to say suffering is not required. Nobody ever said that would happen. You started believing Andrew's posts about what he imagined I was saying. No, that wasn't the point. Peace is not an insulation from suffering or anything else. It is fundamentally an absence. I can only assume that you are talking about yourselves because you're not talking about me. The problem is you're both just theorizing about this peace and imagining you know it, and then reinforcing this idea by projecting your ignorance onto me and trying to fix me. Your peace that makes negativity impossible is this insulating barrier that you talk about. If fear cannot happen in peace, then peace cannot happen in fear. This makes peace conditional. What Peace actually is, is not conditional. Andrew, on the other hand, is looking for all the good stuff without any of the bad stuff, and in order to avoid the two-ended stick, he has to imagine that the good stuff has some kind of absolute quality to it, and yet Beingness is qualityless. This billion year joy has no absolute origin in which to establish itself. Its all far less complicated than that. In the absence of attachment, resistance, judgement, self-image, conditioned fear etc, there is consistent joy, lightness, ease, grace, love, play, happiness, passion, fulfilment. I call it 'no head banging'. |
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Post by Beingist on May 22, 2012 19:32:17 GMT -5
Its all far less complicated than that. In the absence of attachment, resistance, judgement, self-image, conditioned fear etc, there is consistent joy, lightness, ease, grace, love, play, happiness, passion, fulfilment. I call it 'no head banging'. But, some people like to 'headbang' ... |
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Post by figgy on May 22, 2012 20:16:26 GMT -5
You're not human. You're THIS. You don't move, you're not wired, you don't resonate. You see joy and you're it... You see many things and you seem to become them... Well, it seems that me that right now here on this forum, in this thread, we're engaged in discussion about and focused upon the 'experience' of being. And yes, part of THIS includes an experience of being a human....and part of that involves experiences of being wired and resonating.  Is there a problem with any aspect of the experience?...or 'experience' itself?..or a particular focus on an aspect of the experience? |
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 20:43:30 GMT -5
You don't recall writing this: "yes, and the NEGATIVITY is expected from all the single ended joy-stick seekers...."? I meant that nobody ever said that joy is inextricably linked to suffering. What I HAVE said is that sorrow is not suffering. A dead, empty neutrality is not what I mean by absence. That's still suffering. Axchooly, I started "expounding" on absence because every time I said 'Peace', Andrew claimed I was claiming a special state. I agree. I've 'expounded' on non-resistance and acceptance for many years. I AM saying that. |
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 20:48:23 GMT -5
Question re: enigma: "it is impossible to have a useful conversation with him." Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&thread=2178&page=3#ixzz1vcaSXsyxPerhaps your definition of "useful" is the issue? From my perspective I've had useful conversations. Clarifications about what different ideas and pointers mean, for example. Question, what is the "useful" element that you find missing in your conversations with enigma? What exactly are you looking for that you find him inadequately addressing? I guess if you accept his assumptions then you will find it useful how he is able to wiggle his way around the problems they create. But the thing is that he never actually transcends these assumptions. You end up doing intellectual acrobatics, solving his problems (which you accepted to be existent) and not yours. Recently we have been discussing the assumption that all experience is dualistic. Upon this assumption Enigma builds a complex teaching. When the student tries to apply this teaching he is perplexed, because it's not compatible with his actual experience, but the intuition/assumption is believed so strongly that the student ends up in the toilet. We have shown that actually experience isn't dualistic at all, to see this at once eradicates all the artificial problems which E convinces people to deal with. What I would consider useful in our talks is honesty and a willingness to question one's own assumptions. Enigma isn't doing that. Andrew is clearly seeing what Enigma is doing. Enigma isn't seeing what Andrew is doing, he is reading Andrew's words alright but he doesn't understand, instead he ridicules it by instead talking about infinate bliss buckets and one-ended sticks. People have a useful conversation when they listen and try to understand each other. A conversation is useless when even after 50 pages of text someone is completely refusing to hear and understand what the other is saying. All it means is that you disagree. |
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 20:50:35 GMT -5
Here's the thing E. I could quite happily talk about an absence of judgement, or absence of attachment, or resistance, of self-image, or conditioned fear....but an absence of these things does not lead to a special enlightened state. An absence of these things leads to more joy, peace, love, lightness, happiness, ease and grace. What I see you doing is describing an 'absence' of some kind as some kind of enlightened state, but there is no enlightened state. When we talk of non-abidance, its not a state, its a way of experiencing which enables us to experience more grace, flow and ease. The reason seekers seek is because they know what is good and they want more of what is good. A trap that many fall into, partly because of dodgy pointing, is thinking there is something better than lightness, ease, grace, joy and peace. Nail on the head here, my friend. You've stated this so well....... something I've been trying to put into words for a while now.  It is indeed interesting how Those who poo-poo joy and bliss are most often those who experience very little of it themselves, and yet, many of these are folks who claim to be 'awake'..... seeing with clarity...no longer believing thoughts, etc...so there's a bit of a conundrum for them in explaining how it is that they no longer believe their thoughts or identify with a 'person' but yet, still experience emotional angst regularly.  And often, IN the absence of an actual life experience brimming with joy, they do precisely what you've described; fall into a trap of believing in the existence of something BETTER than joy, lightness, grace, peace, as though an experience of joy, ease and flow is somehow 'beneath' them. We're you thinking of somebody in particular or is this just about a hypothetical person? |
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Post by figgy on May 22, 2012 21:10:17 GMT -5
Nail on the head here, my friend. You've stated this so well....... something I've been trying to put into words for a while now. It is indeed interesting how Those who poo-poo joy and bliss are most often those who experience very little of it themselves, and yet, many of these are folks who claim to be 'awake'..... seeing with clarity...no longer believing thoughts, etc...so there's a bit of a conundrum for them in explaining how it is that they no longer believe their thoughts or identify with a 'person' but yet, still experience emotional angst regularly. And often, IN the absence of an actual life experience brimming with joy, they do precisely what you've described; fall into a trap of believing in the existence of something BETTER than joy, lightness, grace, peace, as though an experience of joy, ease and flow is somehow 'beneath' them. We're you thinking of somebody in particular or is this just about a hypothetical person? A whole slew of somebodies who claim they are nobodies, but who belie their claim with their vehemence. I've got a few in particular who inundate me with emails to my website because my emphasis on a joyful life infuriates the hell out of them. ;D I often do speak in generalities regarding people because so often 'spiritual folk' glom together into specific belief systems.......However, you specifically WERE an integral part of this conversation, so, if the shoes fits.......  |
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 21:55:33 GMT -5
We're you thinking of somebody in particular or is this just about a hypothetical person? A whole slew of somebodies who claim they are nobodies, but who belie their claim with their vehemence. I've got a few in particular who inundate me with emails to my website because my emphasis on a joyful life infuriates the hell out of them. ;D I often do speak in generalities regarding people because so often 'spiritual folk' glom together into specific belief systems.......However, you specifically WERE an integral part of this conversation, so, if the shoes fits....... How do you know that these peeps experience emotional angst regularly? Do they tell you so? What it is they say is better than joy? I'm not saying such folks don't exist. Seems to me it's not a terribly uncommon scenario. I just suspect you're misinterpreting in most cases because of your single minded focus. Anybody admitting to not being in a continuous state of joy would be suspect to you, even though you are not in such a state constantly either. |
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Post by lemongrass on May 22, 2012 22:35:32 GMT -5
I call it 'no head banging'. But, some people like to 'headbang' ... I find no greating doing than blowing up and cutting egos. I don't even have to suffer while doing it. It just takes developed concentration. |
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Post by enigma on May 22, 2012 22:37:30 GMT -5
I call it 'no head banging'. But, some people like to 'headbang' ... The important question is, is oxygen deprivation to the brain the cause or the effect of head banging? ;D |
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Post by jasonl on May 22, 2012 23:43:31 GMT -5
But, some people like to 'headbang' ... The important question is, is oxygen deprivation to the brain the cause or the effect of head banging? ;D System of a Down is touring the Northeast this summer. I envision much head banging hehe. The lead singer, serj tankian has a book of poetry out youd probably dig. Here is one of their more palatable melodies. Check out the riff at 1:30 |
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Post by Beingist on May 22, 2012 23:55:41 GMT -5
System of a Down is touring the Northeast this summer. I envision much head banging hehe. The lead singer, serj tankian has a book of poetry out youd probably dig. Here is one of their more palatable melodies. Check out the riff at 1:30 Just so that we're clear--I never said I liked headbanging, or even the death metal ... notes that prompt it. I only suggested that some people like to do the headbanging thing. ... not that there's anything wrong with that. For me, it's actually rather entertaining to watch (even with the volume off).  |
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Post by jasonl on May 22, 2012 23:59:50 GMT -5
System of a Down is touring the Northeast this summer. I envision much head banging hehe. The lead singer, serj tankian has a book of poetry out youd probably dig. Here is one of their more palatable melodies. Check out the riff at 1:30 Just so that we're clear--I never said I liked headbanging, or even the death metal ... notes that prompt it. I only suggested that some people like to do the headbanging thing. ... not that there's anything wrong with that. For me, it's actually rather entertaining to watch (even with the volume off). Yah i cant do the head bang thang either (i rock a shaved head mostly), although i cant say i havent wreaked havoc in a mosh pit or 2 in my younger years. Not sure if you were talking about system, but they arent even close to death metal, although they certainly push the line hehe. Here is a very palatable song for anyone interested. I gotta go... |
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Post by andrew on May 23, 2012 1:50:02 GMT -5
Here's the thing E. I could quite happily talk about an absence of judgement, or absence of attachment, or resistance, of self-image, or conditioned fear....but an absence of these things does not lead to a special enlightened state. I've never referred to a special anything, I've repeatedly said that it is NOT a state, I've said that enlightenment is a misconception, and I rarely use the word, and I HAVE referred to it as an absence. As usual, you're arguing with yourself. Yes I know you say it is not a state, but in pointing to this absence ('Peace'), you are pointing to a state/feeling/experience/non-experience/stateless state....it doesn't matter what you categorize it as, its all the same thing. It is saying that there is something better than joy, peace, happiness, ease, grace, play, love, flow. |
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Post by andrew on May 23, 2012 1:52:18 GMT -5
Its all far less complicated than that. In the absence of attachment, resistance, judgement, self-image, conditioned fear etc, there is consistent joy, lightness, ease, grace, love, play, happiness, passion, fulfilment. I call it 'no head banging'. Okay, but then on the other hand you turn around and say that some of these states/feelings are head banging. We might could say that attachment and judgement is head banging, but happiness and joy and ease are not. Its the same happiness and joy and ease when we are 5, 25, and 85. |
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