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Post by andrew on May 24, 2012 13:15:04 GMT -5
That's really cool, I understand what you mean when you talk about communing with your brother in those ways, and I very much resonate with the idea of a 'fluid reality'. As you suggested, the old 'linear' laws do not apply to your experience any more, and I very much agree that acceptance is the key to this. I also agree with your first and second paragraphs. Getting out of the river is the first step, and is a relief if the mental suffering has been intense, but at some point, its time to get back in. In my case, I was somewhat...shoved back in! Mmmmm...now there's a topic that is worthy of really getting into; what is behind the impetus that moves us from a staid position on the riverbank, back into the flow of the river itself? I've referred to this re-engagement with the totality of being in the past as 'coming full circle' and it was generally NOT received well as it was percieved that I was saying something akin to: We return back to believing in the conceptual self. But nevertheless, a 'coming back to one' (albeit with clarity this time) is kind of how it seems to me; It seems if If we're suffering and are to become free from it, we generally first discover that we are able to stand apart from it in a place of insulation, but then there usually comes a point where either we no longer NEED the sense of insulation or as you say, we are pushed off that 'safe' ledge, back into the fray...(which may or may not actually be perceived as a 'fray' at that point.  ) In short, Would love to hear all about you getting shoved back in! ;D 'Coming back to one' resonates with me, and I also understand what you mean when you talk about believing again in the conceptual self, but I can see why that wouldn't be well received in some circles! In a sense, given that something is always happening, we could perhaps say that the choice is between taking up a neutral observational position (riverbank) or an active creator position (being in the flow). In a way, it could be argued that they are both 'deluded', however, I would say that the observational position comes with more separation, more attachment, and far less joy, peace, bliss and ease than the creator position. I also consider the creator position to be a more honest position somehow, because the experiencing is much more direct, it is not filtered through an abstract idea of existing as something prior. I was basically on the riverbank for about a couple of years after a few years of mental suffering, and although I was no longer suffering so much, I was kind of aware that there was something 'more' than that, but I felt it would come together at some stage. I was in my 20s at the time, a time when I really could have been having more fun than I was having. There I was, thinking I was at 'Peace', but basically had no life...there was very little play, fun, joy, passion and vibrancy in my life. I was drawn to the healing arts but didn't quite resonate with Reiki at the time, so I went ahead and received a 'Reconnection' attunement (Eric Pearl), over a 2 day period. After the first day, I was very scared, I knew something big was happening, but thought it best to keep going rather than stop half way through. I walked out after the second day knowing that something had changed forever and that nothing would be the same ever again. The insulation of the river bank was no longer insulating me - the attunement basically threw me back into the river, and there was no way back to the bank even though I desperately tried to get back there. The next couple of years were really really hard as I worked through all my issues, there was a lot of confusion, insanity, and sadness used to EXPLODE out of me like a volcano eruption. I got a lot of help from a lot of different people, but in the end what really helped was opening up to getting very practical. I had to abandon grandiose ideas of enlightenment and realization and work on the state of my life. Ironically, it was through getting very practical, and basically getting a life, that I worked through far more of my attachments and fears than I ever would have done while sat on the river bank. So, as much as I advocate getting back in the river, I guess I can relate to the reluctance of going full circle and 'coming back to one'. In a way, I guess we still are 'coming back to one', but I see that you embrace that process, as do I. I dont mind admitting that I still have attachment to release, and ego rears its head somewhat, but I don't worry about it too much these days, in a sense I am too immersed in life to worry too much about a bit of attachment and ego. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 13:15:52 GMT -5
For example, the qualia of patterning recognizing what might be pattern named 'time.' The direct experience of that pattern is not conceptualization, but the building of the concept of time and all the other concepts related to time. That's what i was thinking anyhoo. Are you saying that the experience of labeling and 'conceptualizing' is also qualia, direct experience? So, in fact, the concept of duality is completely imagined. There is nothing other than experience, and that includes the experience of imagining there is something other than experience? Yes, there isn't anything other than direct experience. Direct experience, now, presence, are all synonyms for the same thing. Duality, time, space, etc... you have to bring them to direct experience and see if they hold up. This is an empirical investigation. The authority of any empirical investigation is reality, which in our context is direct, alive and non-conceptual experience. When you have questions or ideas about reality then you have to bring them to reality to see whether these ideas are true or not. When you have ideas about reality that are structured so that no empirical investigation is possible then you're validating ideas by referring to other ideas, which means that your thinking is circular. works for me. what about if someone else's investigations lead to different conclusions? Some folks see a direct link to God, some don't. |
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Post by question on May 24, 2012 13:25:22 GMT -5
Yes, there isn't anything other than direct experience. Direct experience, now, presence, are all synonyms for the same thing. Duality, time, space, etc... you have to bring them to direct experience and see if they hold up. This is an empirical investigation. The authority of any empirical investigation is reality, which in our context is direct, alive and non-conceptual experience. When you have questions or ideas about reality then you have to bring them to reality to see whether these ideas are true or not. When you have ideas about reality that are structured so that no empirical investigation is possible then you're validating ideas by referring to other ideas, which means that your thinking is circular. works for me. what about if someone else's investigations lead to different conclusions? Some folks see a direct link to God, some don't. You are not someone else. Your experience is your authority, not theirs. |
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Post by living on May 24, 2012 13:28:36 GMT -5
Thank you for your presence here.  Seconded. Also appreciating your website. Reading what you have to say about Spiritual Ego just now... Welcome aboard. Peter Hi Peter Ahhhhh, nicely expressed piece of insight. Surely everyone here would benefit from the read. |
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Post by figgy on May 24, 2012 13:30:46 GMT -5
Mmmmm...now there's a topic that is worthy of really getting into; what is behind the impetus that moves us from a staid position on the riverbank, back into the flow of the river itself? I've referred to this re-engagement with the totality of being in the past as 'coming full circle' and it was generally NOT received well as it was percieved that I was saying something akin to: We return back to believing in the conceptual self. But nevertheless, a 'coming back to one' (albeit with clarity this time) is kind of how it seems to me; It seems if If we're suffering and are to become free from it, we generally first discover that we are able to stand apart from it in a place of insulation, but then there usually comes a point where either we no longer NEED the sense of insulation or as you say, we are pushed off that 'safe' ledge, back into the fray...(which may or may not actually be perceived as a 'fray' at that point. ) In short, Would love to hear all about you getting shoved back in! ;D 'Coming back to one' resonates with me, and I also understand what you mean when you talk about believing again in the conceptual self, but I can see why that wouldn't be well received in some circles! In a sense, given that something is always happening, we could perhaps say that the choice is between taking up a neutral observational position (riverbank) or an active creator position (being in the flow). In a way, it could be argued that they are both 'deluded', however, I would say that the observational position comes with more separation, more attachment, and far less joy, peace, bliss and ease than the creator position. I also consider the creator position to be a more honest position somehow, because the experiencing is much more direct, it is not filtered through an abstract idea of existing as something prior. I was basically on the riverbank for about a couple of years after a few years of mental suffering, and although I was no longer suffering so much, I was kind of aware that there was something 'more' than that, but I felt it would come together at some stage. I was in my 20s at the time, a time when I really could have been having more fun than I was having. There I was, thinking I was at 'Peace', but basically had no life...there was very little play, fun, joy, passion and vibrancy in my life. I was drawn to the healing arts but didn't quite resonate with Reiki at the time, so I went ahead and received a 'Reconnection' attunement (Eric Pearl), over a 2 day period. After the first day, I was very scared, I knew something big was happening, but thought it best to keep going rather than stop half way through. I walked out after the second day knowing that something had changed forever and that nothing would be the same ever again. The insulation of the river bank was no longer insulating me - the attunement basically threw me back into the river, and there was no way back to the bank even though I desperately tried to get back there. The next couple of years were really really hard as I worked through all my issues, there was a lot of confusion, insanity, and sadness used to EXPLODE out of me like a volcano eruption. I got a lot of help from a lot of different people, but in the end what really helped was opening up to getting very practical. I had to abandon grandiose ideas of enlightenment and realization and work on the state of my life. Ironically, it was through getting very practical, and basically getting a life, that I worked through far more of my attachments and fears than I ever would have done while sat on the river bank. So, as much as I advocate getting back in the river, I guess I can relate to the reluctance of going full circle and 'coming back to one'. In a way, I guess we still are 'coming back to one', but I see that you embrace that process, as do I. I dont mind admitting that I still have attachment to release, and ego rears its head somewhat, but I don't worry about it too much these days, in a sense I am too immersed in life to worry too much about a bit of attachment and ego. Lovely. Thanks for sharing that. "Immersed in Life"....perfect. yes, I'd have to agree the 'coming back to one' feels to me too to be an ongoing process and one that I'm not certain there is ever an end to, in this physical life anyway....if feels very freeing here (and often regarding these matters), to admit; I don't know.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2012 13:33:48 GMT -5
works for me. what about if someone else's investigations lead to different conclusions? Some folks see a direct link to God, some don't. You are not someone else. Your experience is your authority, not theirs. um, yep, I know that. But why all the fuss when someone reports a different interpretation of their direct experience? |
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Post by figgy on May 24, 2012 13:36:46 GMT -5
Mmmmm...now there's a topic that is worthy of really getting into; what is behind the impetus that moves us from a staid position on the riverbank, back into the flow of the river itself? I've referred to this re-engagement with the totality of being in the past as 'coming full circle' and it was generally NOT received well as it was percieved that I was saying something akin to: We return back to believing in the conceptual self. But nevertheless, a 'coming back to one' (albeit with clarity this time) is kind of how it seems to me; It seems if If we're suffering and are to become free from it, we generally first discover that we are able to stand apart from it in a place of insulation, but then there usually comes a point where either we no longer NEED the sense of insulation or as you say, we are pushed off that 'safe' ledge, back into the fray...(which may or may not actually be perceived as a 'fray' at that point. ) In short, Would love to hear all about you getting shoved back in! ;D figs, I feel this is a wonderful pointer to vulnerability as our primary exposure to the strength of what we are. Eventually we are willing enough to trust that the universe is a loving provider. I had the opportunity to experience this in a hospice situation with a loved one as the primary care giver. Fully engaged for 3 months. Sadness quickly became unconditional love, which then embraced a rock steady clarity. And then, in one ongoing moment, immense, unencumbered beauty speaking of the unspeakable, without words. As you mentioned earlier, there is no pain in a moment like this. Only love. Thank you for your presence here. ...tears in my eyes....  (the joyful kind!  YOUR presence here is also very much appreciated.  |
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Post by figgy on May 24, 2012 13:38:34 GMT -5
Thank you for your presence here. Seconded. Also appreciating your website. Reading what you have to say about Spiritual Ego just now... Welcome aboard. Peter Thanks so much Peter. haha..yeah, I think when I wrote that article I had just come away from experiencing a real nice bout of my own spiritual ego...so I knew what I was talkin' 'bout.  ;D |
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Post by question on May 24, 2012 13:55:19 GMT -5
You are not someone else. Your experience is your authority, not theirs. um, yep, I know that. But why all the fuss when someone reports a different interpretation of their direct experience? Because I'm addicted to arguing. |
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Post by Portto on May 24, 2012 15:02:14 GMT -5
We never actually get out of the 'flow of life.'
We only imagine we do. And then we imagine we get back in.
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Post by figgy on May 24, 2012 15:21:14 GMT -5
We never actually get out of the 'flow of life.' We only imagine we do. And then we imagine we get back in. Sure. And we could say that we can experience being in different positions in relation to what is perceived as 'the flow' and the experience varies with each. Indeed, When it comes right down to it, we're all experiencing, all imagining. so long as we're physically alive, I don't see that we will change that. The question is; Are we embracing and loving the experience/imagining or are we fighting against it. |
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Post by andrew on May 24, 2012 15:24:30 GMT -5
We never actually get out of the 'flow of life.' We only imagine we do. And then we imagine we get back in. We imagine we get out of the flow of life when we imagine we get on the riverbank (that we are some prior thing). When we stop imagining we are on a river bank we imagine again that we are an individual. Peeps generally don't want to do that if their former experience of thinking they are an individual was not very pleasant. That's why I said there comes a point where we are either imagining we are a neutral and prior observer, or imagining we are a creator. I gave my reasons why I think the latter is better. |
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Post by andrew on May 24, 2012 15:25:22 GMT -5
We never actually get out of the 'flow of life.' We only imagine we do. And then we imagine we get back in. Sure. And we could say that we can experience being in different positions in relation to what is perceived as 'the flow' and the experience varies with each. Indeed, When it comes right down to it, we're all experiencing, all imagining. so long as we're physically alive, I don't see that we will change that. The question is; Are we embracing and loving the experience/imagining or are we fighting against it. Yep, that's it. I was writing at the same time you were. |
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Post by figgy on May 24, 2012 15:28:47 GMT -5
Sure. And we could say that we can experience being in different positions in relation to what is perceived as 'the flow' and the experience varies with each. Indeed, When it comes right down to it, we're all experiencing, all imagining. so long as we're physically alive, I don't see that we will change that. The question is; Are we embracing and loving the experience/imagining or are we fighting against it. Yep, that's it. I was writing at the same time you were. ;D |
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Post by Portto on May 24, 2012 15:37:12 GMT -5
We can also stop imagining and still be alive (life itself), although this is not a popular option ;D
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;D
