Crazier ending??

[enigma]

Feb 21, 2012 16:48:05 GMT -5 runstill said:

Feb 21, 2012 16:02:58 GMT -5 enigma said:

It's item number 563 on the list of test questions before you can get your enlightenment diploma from the DO.

Man I'm just waiting for you to take your wreaking ball over there... hehe ;D

I don't know nuthin about no 9th jhana either. The difference is I don't care, and probly shouldn't spend too much quality time around those who do. ;D

[desertrat]

I did a web search on Jhana and this is real and there is info on it . I dont know if S.C. got to the 9th jhana . thehealingsphere.blogspot.com/2010/10/higher-levels-of-reality.html www.energyreality.com/pgs/how.htm dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2656121 www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEco2ojydNM desert rat

[zendancer]

Hmmmmmmmm. All I see is fingers typing on a keyboard and words appearing on a computer screen. I don't see any levels or ideas about levels. Where's them little suckers hidin'? ;D

[desertrat]

I was not saying that I got to the 9th jhana , it was S.C. on another forum that said he was there , but could not describe it . It would be nice to be able to keep my mind focused and get that deep . desert rat

[kate]

I had never heard of the 9th Jhana before but I just read that first link you posted, desertrat. Sounds super complicated and I'm still not sure what it is!

[zendancer]

Don't be misled. If the ninth Jhana (or the nine-hundred and ninetieth Jhana) isn't here and now, where else could it be? If deepest samadhi happens, it will be what is happening here and now. Sooner or later all samadhis come to an end, and, still, there is only what is happening here and now. Who you ARE is what is always here and now. There is no one who goes into samadhi or comes out of it. Who you ARE is what all samadhis occur within.

[enigma]

Feb 21, 2012 22:28:41 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Hmmmmmmmm. All I see is fingers typing on a keyboard and words appearing on a computer screen. I don't see any levels or ideas about levels. Where's them little suckers hidin'? ;D

If you don't know about the 9th jhana thingy, you don't get yer enlightenment diploma.

[enigma]

Feb 21, 2012 22:38:28 GMT -5 desertrat said:

I was not saying that I got to the 9th jhana , it was S.C. on another forum that said he was there , but could not describe it . It would be nice to be able to keep my mind focused and get that deep . desert rat

I would say you already need a tow truck to help you get back to the surface.

[exactamente]

Feb 21, 2012 15:55:24 GMT -5 desertrat said:

In reading the comments from that forum , it looks like Steve is getting mad when they ask him to describe that 9th jhana and he can not describe that state of consciousness . desert rat

Tath posted in the “Claims of Attainment” section of Dharmaoverground

On this board, he claimed to be fully enlightend, but not a Buddha yet.
So, let’s see what he claimed on the other board:


1) Being pure still nonbeingness, openness

Steven Cundiff:
“13 years ago I found the still unmoving center … I was in a flow to and from my still self... I realized that the only way to enter was to not enter, to let the entered go and be no more...so I did...I passed from pure still beingness into pure still nonbeingness.... Now I am am openess of death/unbeing/void that flows through openly in a continuous whole with life/still being/isness and that flows openly into the movement of mind, though now it is choiceless flowing mind....its an openess of life death an doing/not doing in every moment.”

2) Being free of emotional suffering of any kind

End in Sight:
Are you free of all experiences of fear, misery, unhappiness, existential angst, or emotional suffering of any kind?

Steven Cundiff:
Yes, I am free of those things.

3) No choosing

End in Sight:
Is every moment of your experience absolute perfection? If so, describe it specifically.
If someone broke into your home, intending to kill you, how would you react / feel?

Steven Cundiff:
Every moment is perfection....and I cannot say how I would respond to an imagined event like this except with imagination...I don't make choices, so whatever would happen would happen....in most cases compassion suffices for people in difficulty....it might be best to offer him or her something to eat. I don't feel fundamentally differant in one situation versus another...its all the unsame same.

4) Experiencing only perfection

End in Sight:
Can you visualize such a situation? In any case, predict what might happen and let us know. Surely you are able to make predictions about ways that events might unfold.
EDIT: For clarity, you may take the situation to be that someone breaks into your house and is in the process of bludgeoning you to death. What kind of reaction might you have? What would you think, do, or feel?

Steven Cundiff:
I am the unsame same...situations don't change this...one moment is the same as the next...its all perfection...so in that situation, wherein I am already being bludgeoned to death....there is no differance...in all likelyhood I would smile a compassionate friendly smile as the final blow fell.
Although, it may be an opertunity for a little humor lol.

5) Having reached the end of his spiritual search

End in Sight:
What else do you think is left for you to do in terms of practice? Why have you asked us to map your experiences to what we are familiar with?

Steven Cundiff:
I am not searching for anything, why prepare for the wedding feast when you are already at the table lol....I asked Becuase I asked...I often find myself asking folks about the nature of their practice and ideas....

6) He neither is nor isn’t nor not is nor not isn’t

Nikolai:
Do you have, gross or subtle, any mentally felt sense of: self / self-obsessing chatter / being / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / craving of any subtle and gross kinds?

Steven Cundiff:
There was a time when this body/mind became still, and then beingness in oneness was observed....but in the last act of surrender of the self this oneness and still silent beingness was let go...now there is the unbeing being....beyond oneness...the unwitnessing witness....unwitnessing Becuase there is no witnessing or witnesser.
Neither being nor nonbeing....nor not being or not nonbeing.

7) Found the still unmoving center and moved beyond
8) Experiences no suffering
9) Having no attachments or desires

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
1) Why did you do all of that, that you described? What made you find the "still unmoving center" in the first place?
2) How do you define suffering?
3) Is there any suffering in your experience?
4) How has the experience of suffering changed over the course of the past 13 years?
5) Read a precis of actual freedom - what do you think of the words there?

Steven Cundiff:
1. I wanted to know the truth of what I was, what or where did I really come from, what was the source from which this flowed, what is the nature of things...in meditation I found the still center...in surrender I moved beyond.
2. Suffering is the result of unrealized desire...while one is moved by the movement of desire there will always be suffering, Becuase desire is never fullfilled, it just moves from one thing to another...so as long as there is desire there will be belief, as long as there is belief there will be suffering....but all of it is just mind, and mind is not a thing, its a movement...stop moving and there is no mind, no suffering....or let mind completely flow and float free with no attachment and there is no suffering.
3. I have no suffering.
4. Suffering was momentary over that 13 years...it passed through like a cloud in the sky...now there is no attachment and no desire...there is still flowing surrender.
5. The person who wrote this spoke well and accurately...I would only add that mind is a movement not a thing...and that humans are the means of the isness creating itself and becoming concious of itself...humans are the means by which the nonbeing being manifests the endless tapestry of interwoven thought/mind/movement which is creation. quote]

10) Completely Liberated (?)

End in Sight:
As you appear to claim to be completely liberated, it is not my place to judge your attainment. Perhaps you can find someone else on the DhO who will.
If your descriptions are accurate, it may well be that you are completely liberated.
We would surely be interested in specific, concrete practice advice if you have any to share. How do you think you could have made the path go more quickly for you, if you were able to advise yourself in the past?

Steven Cundiff:
I would have told myself that liberation is not something you find or aquire...its something you uncover....liberation comes in surrender, not searching...searching and great effort is needed to get you to the gate, but it will never get you through...."you" cannot pass through this gate...only by letting go of you can you enter without entering.
through right practice once you have found the essential stillness that is you and let this stillness go in complete surrender you are enlightened....there is nothing more than this....I spent close to 13 years searching for something more than this after I found it, 19 years in total...I would spend a part of everyday nonbeing, surrendered away into nonbeingness...and then I would come back and continue searching for something more than this...finally I gave up the search Becuase I could not continue...I had no more left in me, I had utterly lost hope and gave up...I thought to myself that I will surrender into nonbeing this last time and "be" and search no more...and so i did....in that moment the whole universe opened up before me as if my awareness was rolling out across all existance...I could see everything...including the fact that there was nothing more to find or uncover than what I had already uncovered or surrendered into...I saw that for many years now the only thing that kept me enslaved was my own searching, I was the searching, the observing and there was nothing else, so i let it go, and with that came liberation.
Great effort and great searching is needed, but these things will never set you free....effort is needed but effort is not enough....effort will get the fruit ripe, but will not make it drop from the tree.
The only way you can know for certain that it is time to give up effort is that you cannot go on...at the time where effort becomes hopelessness and you absolutely cannot continue, then it is time to let effort go.
This is what i would have told myself....but you are differant....there is no one size fits all...each body mind is a unique exppression at a unique state of self awareness or bondage/freedom...so maybe what i would say to myself in that time is only good for some of you, while not so good for others...no one size fits all.
As for concrete advise....what is your current approach, what are your methods, what is your experience with them...what is the deepest level you have uncovered or experienced?...there are many methods, some will fit you, some will not.

11) There is no me and yet there is a me, ‘Steven’ still exists as a movement of mind

Nikolai:
Is that last line of neither being nor nonbeing etc an experience or is it an attempt at describing something indescribable for you? Is there any affect to that experience? Does it feel like there is 'presence' to that non-being nor being? Do you experience any emotions whatsoever subtle or gross?

Steven Cundiff:
It is an expression designed to confound the mind...experience is a movement of mind...and you cannot communicate to the mind what is beyond mind, you can only hope to confound mind.
There is no affect Becuase there is no experiencer beyond mind...
As to whether there is a "presence" to the nonbeing....there is a presence to the still formless silent being, there is no presense to the nonbeing, there is a totality of being and nonbeing...both are still and silent, both are not two or one but one beyond one...and then there is movement within the stillness of being nonbeing, that movement is mind....mind is not a thing it is a movement....minding is a better word than mind...
There is still the movement that is Steven but it is a passing movement...it rises and falls and will eventually be no more...for right now this movement is passing close to your movement enteracting together...but while this movement exists it is just a movement, not a me...and the movement moving or not moves choicelessly....the mind has become a mechanism that takes care of itself like your body does....your heart beats choicelessly as the mechanism takes care of itself, in like kind the mind moves now like a heartbeat...it choicelessly moves in a way that takes care of itself...but it is just a movement, the breeze passing through the endless sky...that movement is an experience enteracting with your movement/experience...but this is not me...there is no me and yet there is a me....nonbeing being...presense within still silent being and no presense in nonbeing, a totality of nonbeing being....there are two halves of one whole...life and death...the root of life is pure silent unmoving infinate being, the other side of the coin is death/the void, endless nonbeing...they are one beyond the concept of one...neither two nor one was called....the old Indian teachers describe the idea of the sixth and seventh bodies...the sixth is god union, unlimited being....there is a presense to this but a presence with no identity, the seventh body is the passing beyond...the nonbeing, but they are not two, neither being and nonbeing nor not being or not nonbeing...they are one in an openess of all nonbeing being, ..life and death in a completeness....
But these are words that can only indicate...Through practice, and at the right time, through no practice.... you can open to this.

12) You cannot know the unknowable, but you can enter it without entering

Meggo mu:
What you said about mind is making me think about turiya/ Nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi?
Do you recognize your experience in this talk?
www.well.com/user/jct/Talk.htm

Steven Cundiff:
The meaning of these words: Turiya, nirvikalpa sahajah samadhi....these are good fingers pointing, but no amount of finger pointing is enough....and too much can be disadvantageous for you....best sometimes to just let these things go....looking for fingers that can point your way to the moon helps you to overcome the biggest obstacle in your path, which is fear...fear of the unknown....you look for definitions so you can feel like you know the unknowable a little better, and in so doing you hope to make it easier to let go into this unknown.....you are pretending you can know the unknowable so you can come up with enough courage.
But you cannot know this...you can only let go and enter without entering...at some point you have to leave off with the pointing and go to the moon.
Courage is doing something even when you are scared....have courage...
As to UG's talk....I recognize some decent finger pointing, though his "skillful means" in finger pointing is not the best lol....but having skillful means in finger pointing is not the best way to help most people anyway lol.

13) When ‘it’ happens, it happens, it cannot be forced

End in Sight:
Do you think that you literally could have attained your current state at any point beginning 13 years ago by allowing your mind to incline in a certain direction? Was all your progress between then and now merely "psychological", eventually allowing you simply to surrender when you ran out of things to aim at? I (being skeptical of this claim) assume there must have been some fundamental developmental progress going on...in fact, I assume an enormous amount of such progress.
If you assert that this is true, how would you have explained to yourself what it was that you would have needed to do or not-do? (In other words: how to do or not-do it?)
Have you ever experienced something similar or identical to your current state in the past, even if momentarily?

Steven Cundiff:
i make no claims that it could have happened sooner, when the fruit was ripe it dropped from the tree.

14) Always in deepest samadhi

End in Sight:
The question I was interesting in hearing your thoughts on was how you could have made the process go more quickly (if you could have), and what you would have told yourself in order to make that happen. Is your claim that you could not have made it go faster in any way you know of?
Also, I am still interested in your answer to my other question: Have you ever experienced something similar or identical to your current state in the past, even if momentarily?

Steven Cundiff:
the phrase hindsight is 20/20 might fit well here....I could not have made it go faster, and frankly it doesnt matter if it would have gone faster, once it happens how long it took doesnt mean anything....
the reason I used the phrase hind sight is 20/20 is that yes...in the deepest samadhi where you have passed beyond being into nonbeing being you are totally enlightened in that moment, there is no differance between deep samadhi and enlightenment except the duration really...when you open and surrender into nonbeing being you are in samadhi...when you stay there in activity and inactivity and do not return you are enlightened...but this is only true of the deepest samadhi where you are no more, where you pass beyond even the presense of of formless being...
almost everyday for that thirteen years I opened up and surrendered myself into this...as a play I used every technique, every meditation practice I new of to get to the gate...and in so doing I came to know them better, to understand the mechanism of each...but I was always moving in and out...into the deep surrender of nonbeing, and back into formless eternal witnessing..and back into being identified with the minding movement....back and forth...and each time I was back in the mind I was searching again...looking for something more than the nonbeing being...but after thirteen years of moving back and forth I became hopeless, I became utterly exhuasted with the search, and gave up...it was not a choice, I could not have continued if I wanted to...so I gave up and surrendered the search, surrendered myself, my whole identity and the formless identityless self into the stillness, into nonbeing being...and then it happened.... I saw that there was nothing more than this...nothing more than this nonbeing being...this deepest samadhi...and since then I have not left this deepest samadhi...it is the natural nonbeing being that is the naturalness of everyone....
but I will tell you something funny...the first movement that occured was the words..."the absurdity."....I was amazed at the simpleness, the ordinaryness of it all...this enlightenment is the most ordinary thing...or rather than the word ordinary, maybe close is the right word....it was so close and right there the whole time...I searched and searched and made crazy effort to find something that was just in front of me the whole time...and the mad effort became a comical absurdity to me, I luaghed and luaghed and touched the walls and luaghed at the comical nature of the walls, my skin, everything....but it could not have happened without the effort, and effort was not enough either.
having said all of that...i know what things helped me to uncover what was always there, and what things I did that moved me away from what was always there....you asked what I would say to myself from that time....I would say make every effort...dont delay...becuase the more effort you make the sooner you will become hopeless and your search will end, it cannot happen until you cannot continue.

15) Beyond any (mind) states

End in Sight:
I would like to respond to this in more depth, but (as I do not have time now) I merely want to highlight your claim that there is no difference between the deepest samadhi, and the state of perfection you claim now.
Are you familiar with the terminology of the Pali suttas? Can you describe this using terminology related to jhana? Is the deepest samadhi 'awareness-release'?
I have claimed that the practice of jhana does not have to be about producing "becoming" (= deluded self-experience), and speculated that in the deepest form of it, there would be no "becoming" (thus, a foretaste of full liberation). Others appear not to agree. It appears you may be able to confirm this in your own experience, which is interesting with respect to showing the value of jhana.
Can you still enter samadhi? If so, how is it the same or different?

Steven Cundiff:
I don't claim a state...I am not in a state....what you would describe as samadhi is not something I enter...nor do I leave...there is no comming and going.
I am only passing familier with Pali terminology, so you will need to elaberate a bit on how the pali paradigm views awareness-release....though the words at face value are a good pointer...
At the eighth jhana there is choiceless still awareness without form or identity that is the unwitnessing witness...in the ninth jhana there is no jhana...there is the cessation of still formless awareness...one could say this is entered without entering by awareness release, or surrender of the Brahma, it is like a death really...you enter without entering Becuase the enterer is let go...
A note on jhanas...there is no becoming of enlightened being...you simply uncover what is already there...you cannot become infinate nonbeing being, Becuase you already are that....you can simply uncover and open to it, and ultimately let go.
The jhanas remind me of the bhuddha fields I read about years ago...you do not acquire them so much as you pass through what is already there...perhaps the first jhana can be said to be acquired....but from there on you simply open to what is already there...meditation comes in two forms...doing, and undoing...a lot a vipassana is a doing meditation that is really just a preperation for real meditation...which is an undoing...an uncovering...not a doing or accomplishing...you are undoing the outward movement and identification with movement...the Sufi have a good exspression, "clearing the rust from the heart"...most of the jhanas are an opening to what is already there by clearing the rust from the heart....don't pursue jhanas...let them unfold as you open more deeply into yourself.

[Beingist]

Holy cr@p, that's a lot of text!

Forgive me if I don't read it.

[exactamente]

Feb 21, 2012 23:20:43 GMT -5 enigma said:

Feb 21, 2012 22:28:41 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Hmmmmmmmm. All I see is fingers typing on a keyboard and words appearing on a computer screen. I don't see any levels or ideas about levels. Where's them little suckers hidin'? ;D

If you don't know about the 9th jhana thingy, you don't get yer enlightenment diploma.

But Tath knew about it, told everyone about it and they didn't gave it to him either, not everyone did buy his story, they even thought he could be just a liar:

Daniel Johnson:

Steven Cundiff:
The eigth and ninth jhanas cannot be discussed or described....the eighth can be pointed to...but not accurately described...it is beyond mind, what is beyond mind cannot be accurately discribed or understood by mind....but the 8th jhana can be pointed too. The ninth cannot even be pointed to...it is a death really...a void beyond the idea of void....it cannot be even pointed to with any clarity...there is no awareness there....it cannot be entered Becuase when you pass there you are no more...not even god union is there...it is beyond infinate formless eternal presence....there is no entering...Becuase to enter you have to go where the eternally still unwitnessong witness is no more.

Anyone else see the irony in the fact that you spent a whole paragraph discussing and describing things which you claim can't be discussed or described?

Tommy M:
Hey Steven,

Going by the words you use, the way you describe this and, what is admittedly a subjective impression based on a handful of forum posts on a screen, I think you're either the "real deal" or an extraordinarily good liar which, as you know, would be a complete waste anyway. You're giving some good practical advice, as far as I can see, and your use of the Sufi quote pricked up my ears straight away.

I like the way you mention the process as one of doing and undoing, this sits well with my current practice and experience so far. Good to hear your take on the thing, hopefully you'll stick around and be able to help others along the way.

[exactamente]

Feb 21, 2012 23:37:32 GMT -5 Beingist said:

Holy cr@p, that's a lot of text!

Forgive me if I don't read it.

Well, takes a lot of knowledge and words to describe the indescribable unknowable. ;D

[zendancer]

I read it earlier today, and I don't think E.'s towtruck, even with a turbocharger, and a nonbeing-being-before-being winch, could pull that group back to the surface.

[enigma]

Feb 21, 2012 23:56:01 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I read it earlier today, and I don't think E.'s towtruck, even with a turbocharger, and a nonbeing-being-before-being winch, could pull that group back to the surface.

Hehe.
I haven't consumed the whole enchilada over there, but I nibbled around until I got the gist of it.

The focus on knowledge and woo woo experiences is like analyzing giraffe dung instead of looking up at the giraffe. It reminds me of that guru rating forum where a bunch of unenlightened peeps sit around discussing whether or not a teacher is enlightened.

We inadvertently did a much simpler test here that didn't involve 9th jhanas or being the non-being being of the being being. What we found was Steve, in all his glory and woe. I'm glad to have known him, and I'll do him the honor of not elevating him to the status of teacher on his way to pure Buddhahood.

[Portto]

Well, it's hard to resist the belief that some indescribable knowledge or ultimate seeing of a thingless thing will set one free.