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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 1:18:35 GMT -5
Okay, I'll try to give a sincere answer in the same context asked. My impression is that if it weren't somehow benefiting Andrew or someone else watching the nonsense, that it wouldn't be happening. From within the personal perspective, of course there is an interest, and this interest often takes the form of a question that drives a curiosity. When the question is answered, the drive to engage generally collapses completely. I was talking recently about my experience on one of the Tolle forums. The question that showed up was, "Why not now, always?", meaning if the experience of presence is so wonderful, why not stay present? It took 6 months or so to answer that question, and when it was clear, I lost all interest in the forum. The same thing has happened repeatedly on many forums, usually involving a series of curiosities. In the case of Andrew, I find him to be sincere and honest and easy to talk to, and I see that he has a very good understanding and I believe many good realizations, and yet something peculiar has happened in Andrew-world and I'm quite curious about it. There's been a growing sense that there are folks who resent those conversations taking place, and if that sense grows, they may be cut short or stopped. I actually thought that might happen the other day. I would say it's not primarily about getting Andrew to change his mind about anything. It's not a problem. Thanks, E. This explains a lot. I'm rather curious about Andrew, myself, though most of the time, I have no idea what he's saying, and I'm sure I would seriously disrupt the flow of conversation, and probably just get more confused if I started asking questions.  That said, and for the record, I, for one, certainly don't resent your conversations with him. So much of what you say often enough goes over my head, too (and not necessarily what you say to Andrew), and yes, I can be confused by the unorthodox use of a particular word or a twisted phrase here or there, but I'm aware anymore, that any confusion is my own concern, and not on you guys to explain yourselves. Mostly, your conversations with him seem to me like Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking arguing about string theory and black holes. Once in a while, one or the other of you will say something that appears to contradict what I understand to be true or something else said somewhere else, at which point, I must simply let the whole thing go. You guys are just too advanced for my simple mind. Yeah, the 'advanced' nature of it isn't useful for anybody as such, including Andrew and myself. Rather, the functioning of the mind is being observed as it dodges and weaves trying to avoid the obvious. The more 'advanced' the mentating tendency, the more complex the avoidance strategies, but such avoidance, in general, is common to all seekers. |
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Post by esponja on Feb 23, 2012 2:02:59 GMT -5
Maybe you should look closely and see that you are projecting here also and in a subtle way, you are arguing and are in discordance with what I said. Peace is foundational and for that reason opposites are an illusion (of the human mind). However, our reality and experience IS of opposites (because of the human mind), and so practically speaking, for all intensive purposes, it is ludicrous to say that there is harmony and peace in rape and war and greed. I can say there is peace in rape abstractly but really its pretentious enlightened BS. Here on the forum, the same egoic stuff is being played out just as it is everywhere in the world. Suffering is happening. Well in the words of university of Indiana's old coach Bob Knight, "if you are getting raped and can't do anything to stop it, you might as well lay back and enjoy it". The action of rape is only negative if you were expecting something else to happen. Otherwise it's just another expression of THIS. Same as getting a hug from your grandmother. I agree my words in the world of form are considered by most to be in discordance with yours. But when taking a more broad approach it can be seen that we are simply two sides of a single sided coin talking about the coin. Discordance then melts away. For me conversation is happening. You call it disagreeing. I call it conversation. Do you feel like you are being attacked when we conversate? Mmmmm. Had a mixed reaction to this. Firstly, it was a good pointer and I understood something all over again. I say all over again because I've seen it before but lost it. I understood 'this', without labels and meaning. However, I keep thinking this lately. I feel fine right now and can put thinking aside most days but if anything happened to a direct member of my family, my kids for example, I am damn sure I would suffer in every which way, mind, body and soul. I can see how things just happen and it's our dualistic labelling causing the problems....but I dunno, there's certain situations I would really struggle with. I can't help thinking, this is all well and good whilst things are hunky dorey but the real test will come. All this really makes me think about Jesus' teachings and makes me want to read the Gospel again with my new understanding. Jesus accepted his fate (what better time to discuss this than the lead up to Easter) on the Cross. I've been bought up to believe he died to save our sins, didn't make much sense truth be told. So is this what He meant by '...but not my Will oh Father but yours'? |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 2:41:59 GMT -5
There may not be any thought about it beyond the moment, releasing is also happening here very fast (hence why I could probably do this all night if needs be), but there is still a sense of disagreement, or arguing, of discordance. There is a whole bunch of projecting going on. Ego is playing itself out. War to me is different to peace. War is like...two or more people competing, fighting, wanting to be right, disagreement, discordance, resistance, conditional love. Peace is harmony, ease, resonance, lightness, unconditional love. If it aint peace (which is really the foundation), then there is some degree of war. As it is on here. Peace/Love is unconditional because it has nothing to do with conditions, not because the conditions are right for it. Peace and Love are foundational, not necessarily unconditional. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 2:49:07 GMT -5
Maybe you should look closely and see that you are projecting here also and in a subtle way, you are arguing and are in discordance with what I said. Peace is foundational and for that reason opposites are an illusion (of the human mind). However, our reality and experience IS of opposites (because of the human mind), and so practically speaking, for all intensive purposes, it is ludicrous to say that there is harmony and peace in rape and war and greed. I can say there is peace in rape abstractly but really its pretentious enlightened BS. Here on the forum, the same egoic stuff is being played out just as it is everywhere in the world. Suffering is happening. I don't remember the last time anybody was raped or killed on this forum, or are you saying discussing spiritual stuff is the same as rape and murder? As I have said quite clearly, what is happening on here is an intellectual, spiritual, relatively non-judgemental version of what is happening more widely. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 2:50:16 GMT -5
Do the meat eaters out there take any interest in whether the cows or pigs they are eating had a good quality of life prior to their slaughter? Is it a relevant issue to you when purchasing meat? Or it is a case of....'no animals suffer so it doesnt make a difference'? Or....'there is peace and harmony in the slaughter of animals so it really doesnt matter whether they had a good quality of life or not.'? Or...'there is no me so there is no responsibility so I will pick out whatever meat comes to hand'? It doesn't matter about eating meat. We are meat eaters by nature. It doesnt seem to be my nature any more. I would really just as soon as kill a random dog as eat a steak these days. Both highly against 'my nature'. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 2:54:39 GMT -5
Okay, I'll try to give a sincere answer in the same context asked. My impression is that if it weren't somehow benefiting Andrew or someone else watching the nonsense, that it wouldn't be happening. From within the personal perspective, of course there is an interest, and this interest often takes the form of a question that drives a curiosity. When the question is answered, the drive to engage generally collapses completely. I was talking recently about my experience on one of the Tolle forums. The question that showed up was, "Why not now, always?", meaning if the experience of presence is so wonderful, why not stay present? It took 6 months or so to answer that question, and when it was clear, I lost all interest in the forum. The same thing has happened repeatedly on many forums, usually involving a series of curiosities. In the case of Andrew, I find him to be sincere and honest and easy to talk to, and I see that he has a very good understanding and I believe many good realizations, and yet something peculiar has happened in Andrew-world and I'm quite curious about it. There's been a growing sense that there are folks who resent those conversations taking place, and if that sense grows, they may be cut short or stopped. I actually thought that might happen the other day. I would say it's not primarily about getting Andrew to change his mind about anything. It's not a problem. Thanks, E. This explains a lot. I'm rather curious about Andrew, myself, though most of the time, I have no idea what he's saying, and I'm sure I would seriously disrupt the flow of conversation, and probably just get more confused if I started asking questions. . I cant help but wonder what Ive said that is so confusing in this conversation that you have had no idea what Im saying for most of it. There have been some tangents to be fair, but my basic point is that to be a sentient being on earth at this time is to suffer to at least some degree. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 2:55:02 GMT -5
Peace/Love is unconditional because it has nothing to do with conditions, not because the conditions are right for it. Peace and Love are foundational, not necessarily unconditional. You can't refer to the Peace and Love at the foundation of Being as conditional. Your experience of it is conditional on your recognition of it, but in this recognition it is realized that it is always present. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 2:57:28 GMT -5
What Im illustrating is that agreement and disagreement is part OF suffering. What is happening on here is an intellectual and spiritual version of what goes on in political arenas which lead to outright war and suggesting that there is harmony in war (and rape) is somewhat ridiculous. Its the same ego and unconsciousness playing out on here as it is in any political arena. You've illustrated agreement and disagreement are part of suffering for you. I do agree forums like this can be a microcosm of larger drama with spiritual labels thrown on. I don't have any idea what the rape thing or the idea about harmony has to do with anything. Im saying that in a reality in which there is both agreement and disagreement, there is always going to be some lack of harmony, and to say that there is harmony in rape only really makes sense at an abstract and idealized level. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 3:01:06 GMT -5
Well in the words of university of Indiana's old coach Bob Knight, "if you are getting raped and can't do anything to stop it, you might as well lay back and enjoy it". The action of rape is only negative if you were expecting something else to happen. Otherwise it's just another expression of THIS. Same as getting a hug from your grandmother. I agree my words in the world of form are considered by most to be in discordance with yours. But when taking a more broad approach it can be seen that we are simply two sides of a single sided coin talking about the coin. Discordance then melts away. For me conversation is happening. You call it disagreeing. I call it conversation. Do you feel like you are being attacked when we conversate? Mmmmm. Had a mixed reaction to this. Firstly, it was a good pointer and I understood something all over again. I say all over again because I've seen it before but lost it. I understood 'this', without labels and meaning. However, I keep thinking this lately. I feel fine right now and can put thinking aside most days but if anything happened to a direct member of my family, my kids for example, I am darn sure I would suffer in every which way, mind, body and soul. I can see how things just happen and it's our dualistic labelling causing the problems....but I dunno, there's certain situations I would really struggle with. I can't help thinking, this is all well and good whilst things are hunky dorey but the real test will come. This is healthy. To expect to be experiencing harmony if your kids were being beaten up is ludicrous. If there is a test, its not really how at peace you can be in obviously horrible situations, its how intelligently you can respond. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 3:02:21 GMT -5
I don't remember the last time anybody was raped or killed on this forum, or are you saying discussing spiritual stuff is the same as rape and murder? As I have said quite clearly, what is happening on here is an intellectual, spiritual, relatively non-judgemental version of what is happening more widely. What you said is: comparing rape and murder to debating spirituality. However, I'll accept your new version. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 3:04:47 GMT -5
Peace and Love are foundational, not necessarily unconditional. You can't refer to the Peace and Love at the foundation of Being as conditional. Your experience of it is conditional on your recognition of it, but in this recognition it is realized that it is always present. I havent referred to the foundation as conditional exactly. The foundation can be manifest either unconditionally OR unconditionally and conditionally. It can never be just conditional because it is foundational, but for all intensive practical purposes, this is by the by. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 3:06:35 GMT -5
As I have said quite clearly, what is happening on here is an intellectual, spiritual, relatively non-judgemental version of what is happening more widely. What you said is: comparing rape and murder to debating spirituality. However, I'll accept your new version. I stand by what I said there as well. The same egoic stuff is playing out there. The people who come along and point out ego on threads are not wrong. How was your steak? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 3:10:58 GMT -5
You've illustrated agreement and disagreement are part of suffering for you. I do agree forums like this can be a microcosm of larger drama with spiritual labels thrown on. I don't have any idea what the rape thing or the idea about harmony has to do with anything. Im saying that in a reality in which there is both agreement and disagreement, there is always going to be some lack of harmony, and to say that there is harmony in rape only really makes sense at an abstract and idealized level. So in the 5th dimension, you don't have discussion forums, just glee clubs?  |
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Post by andrew on Feb 23, 2012 3:15:20 GMT -5
Im saying that in a reality in which there is both agreement and disagreement, there is always going to be some lack of harmony, and to say that there is harmony in rape only really makes sense at an abstract and idealized level. So in the 5th dimension, you don't have discussion forums, just glee clubs? I dont know what a glee club is, some kind of dancing things? I guess a discussion forum could be manifest if that was the highest creative desire, but I dont imagine it would often be the highest creative desire. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 23, 2012 3:16:12 GMT -5
You can't refer to the Peace and Love at the foundation of Being as conditional. Your experience of it is conditional on your recognition of it, but in this recognition it is realized that it is always present. I havent referred to the foundation as conditional exactly. The foundation can be manifest either unconditionally OR unconditionally and conditionally. It can never be just conditional because it is foundational, but for all intensive practical purposes, this is by the by. Also by the by, but FYI: public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html |
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