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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 18:15:29 GMT -5
I am speaking of the "Jed McKenna" character of the book series....who from what I understand, is really just a character created by an author, not an actual person. He is very clear through his discourse in the book about how he feels about other people, particularly those who are not awake...heck, he could hardly even bear to have a conversation with his own sister who he had not seen for some time....how is it that dude would be looking foward to 'fun with new faces' if he can hardly bear sitting face to face with a family member...or has to hire an assistant to 'interface with a world in which I just no longer function very well in'? I'm not buying that the Jed of that forum is the character or even the sole author of books (i have heard there were 2 authors involved, so perhaps one has ventured off the do the forum...?) ....I've read through a bit and the forum "Jed" seems very careful about not crossing the line of saying that he is author/character of the books......Or perhaps I've just missed posts where he indicates that he is the same Jed as in the books....? feel free to enlighten me if this is so... I am speaking of the actual being behind 'Jed McKenna'. The points you raised have already been mentioned earlier in the thread. Don't buy anything. You have your own head. The story about Jed as a fictional character is a lullaby for new age peeps who are offended by what happens at the end of the first book.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 18:26:50 GMT -5
What you're encountering in the dialog is some obvious confusion between realization and deepening/further on the part of your correspondents, which is really just confusion about realization itself. This is an endless circular track that's seen many laps on this forum over the years.  Endless all right. No magic wand, is there? Remember the scene in the book where there's this dude ranting to him about ego while he plays video games ... what he asks Maya when she appears, and how she answers? The core delusion on the circle-track is "been there done that". It sticks the seeker in place, which is something that they proceed to project out onto anyone who has actually dares write about the truth that they are. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 18:40:51 GMT -5
The journey's over when ya' die, and karma's constantly created and resolved -- partially or otherwise -- for as long as that lasts. Karma isn't some spiritual accounting ledger in the sky. That's a Western misconception of it that makes for a nice lever of control. It's the same boogeyman as the Devil, just reformulated. Thing 'bout karma is that any action has the entirety of eternity as it's possible target, and while you might assume a given reaction is because of the impure thought you had over lunch last Tuesday, fact is it might instead match up exactly to the misbehavior of some 5 year old sentient squid on a planet orbiting Orion a century in the future. Any conceptual meaning you try to make of this reality is doomed dude. Give it up. Q: And what is death? Niz: It is the change in the living process of a particular body. Integration ends and disintegration sets in. Q: But what about the knower. With the disappearance of the body, does the knower disappear? Niz: Just as the knower of the body appears at birth, so he disappears at birth. Q: And nothing remains? Niz: Life remains. Consciousness needs a vehicle and an instrument for its manifestation. When life produces another body, another knower comes into being. Q: Is there a causal link between the successive body-knowers, or body-minds? Niz: Yes, there is something that may be called the memory body, or causal body, a record of all that was thought, wanted and done. It is like a cloud of images held together. Q: What is this sense of a separate existence? Niz: It is a reflection in a separate body of the one reality. In this reflection the unlimited and the limited are confused and taken to be the same. To undo this confusion is the purpose of Yoga. Q: Does not death undo this confusion? Niz: In death only the body dies. Life does not, consciousness does not, reality does not. And the life is never so alive as after death. Q: But does one get reborn? Niz; What was born must die. Only the unborn is deathless. Find what it is that never sleeps and never wakes, and whose pale reflection is our sense of 'I'. Q: How am I to go about finding out? Niz: How do you go about finding anything? By keeping your mind and heart on it. Interest there must be and steady remembrance. To remember what needs to be remembered is the secret of success. You come to it through earnestness. pages 11, 12, I Am That ................... Now, let's see how you can twist that, but I'm sure you can.......... ................... "Tom", "D!ck" or "Harry" dies when the body dies, or shortly thereafter. This is what the Bardo is about, spoken of in the Tibetan Book of the Dead (the western name, that's not what's it's really called). But yes, something accumulated, continues, the samskaras. This is what causes rebirth, if there are samskaras, rebirth is inevitable, and your present sh!t gets passed on to the next slob (which is in a sense you, yet not you, "another knower comes into being", the confusion of the unlimited and the limited continues, IOW, death does not undo the confusion), via the causal body. Everything Niz said there can be unfolded. He is precisely correct. Thanks for the recommendation. ........ ........ And, while I'm here, this is why sunshine is right and tano isn't. What Niz is pointing to is the impersonality of consciousness and how that relates to the personality of form: the quote doesn't support your conception of karma -- in terms of reason it actually supports mine -- and what you're using to try to win an intellectual debate here isn't the pointing, it's a conceptual shadow that's been sucked dry of any intended meaning. In relative terms, it all started with the big bang and spun out based on a set of characteristics ("laws of nature") in a sublime and beautiful random dance that's lasted billions of years yet. Don't conceit yourself into thinking that you can make some sort of choice that effects it. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 18:49:59 GMT -5
Q: And what is death? Niz: It is the change in the living process of a particular body. Integration ends and disintegration sets in. Q: But what about the knower. With the disappearance of the body, does the knower disappear? Niz: Just as the knower of the body appears at birth, so he disappears at birth. Q: And nothing remains? Niz: Life remains. Consciousness needs a vehicle and an instrument for its manifestation. When life produces another body, another knower comes into being. Q: Is there a causal link between the successive body-knowers, or body-minds? Niz: Yes, there is something that may be called the memory body, or causal body, a record of all that was thought, wanted and done. It is like a cloud of images held together. Q: What is this sense of a separate existence? Niz: It is a reflection in a separate body of the one reality. In this reflection the unlimited and the limited are confused and taken to be the same. To undo this confusion is the purpose of Yoga. Q: Does not death undo this confusion? Niz: In death only the body dies. Life does not, consciousness does not, reality does not. And the life is never so alive as after death. Q: But does one get reborn? Niz; What was born must die. Only the unborn is deathless. Find what it is that never sleeps and never wakes, and whose pale reflection is our sense of 'I'. Q: How am I to go about finding out? Niz: How do you go about finding anything? By keeping your mind and heart on it. Interest there must be and steady remembrance. To remember what needs to be remembered is the secret of success. You come to it through earnestness. pages 11, 12, I Am That ................... Now, let's see how you can twist that, but I'm sure you can.......... ................... "Tom", "D!ck" or "Harry" dies when the body dies, or shortly thereafter. This is what the Bardo is about, spoken of in the Tibetan Book of the Dead (the western name, that's not what's it's really called). But yes, something accumulated, continues, the samskaras. This is what causes rebirth, if there are samskaras, rebirth is inevitable, and your present sh!t gets passed on to the next slob (which is in a sense you, yet not you, "another knower comes into being", the confusion of the unlimited and the limited continues, IOW, death does not undo the confusion), via the causal body. Everything Niz said there can be unfolded. He is precisely correct. Thanks for the recommendation. ........ ........ And, while I'm here, this is why sunshine is right and tano isn't. Niz: "I do not say that the same person is reborn. It dies and dies for good. But its memories remain and their desires and fears. They supply the energy for a new person. The real takes no part in it, but it makes it possible by giving it the light" I invite you to go back and compare this quote to my reply to 'dusty. 'dusty holds to the belief that karma must be burned up for TR to be complete. Do you think that your Niz quote supports that idea? |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 18:51:52 GMT -5
Niz: "I do not say that the same person is reborn. It dies and dies for good. But its memories remain and their desires and fears. They supply the energy for a new person. The real takes no part in it, but it makes it possible by giving it the light" Yes, exactly. This is the meaning of "Tom", D!ck" or "Harry" dies when the body dies, or shortly thereafter. ........ It's a very complicated issue, but Niz put it in a nutshell, my quote and your quote. ...........If one ponders these two quotes, a very great deal can be learned, but can't leave out any of the words of Niz, especially the words confused and confusion. How about the part where the real takes no part in it but supplies the light? The truth has nothing to do with burning karma off. It's not a reward for purifying yourself. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 19:00:35 GMT -5
Do you have any idea the number of Niz quotes I could put up where he refutes this idea that seekers have that the truth is at all contingent upon conditions? |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 19:02:33 GMT -5
The causal body is an individuation (exists as a finer level of vibrations, much finer that the physical). The causal body exists before physical birth. The new birth of a physical body is "seeded" with certain attributes which ~come from~ the causal body, these include ~impurities~, the samskaras. As the new body grows it collects information which is stored in the new neural structure. This becomes what Niz calls the knower, also called ego, personality, cultural self, false self, many different names, what I referred to as "Tom", "D!ck", "Harry". So, nobody really starts 'from scratch'. We 'start' with certain samskaras which had been 'stored' in the causal body. This is what Niz called the confusion of the unlimited and the limited. The purpose behind life is to clear out all the samskaras, all distortions. If these are cleared out then an individuated ~person~ becomes a vehicle for Atman to manifest in life. If they are not dissolved, upon the death of the physical body the samskaras (can be more or less depending upon the life lived) go back into the causal body, repeat. The self we think ourselves to be, the named ego-personality-cultural self, dies. Dead means forever dead. The memories are stored in the causal body, as Niz said. These are individuated, ~in~ the causal body, although probably accessible, if one can reach the vibratory level of the causal body, not exactly very easy. In any one life, all the samskaras can be eliminated, but this is not so easy to do. The idea of reincarnation can be a good thing or a bad thing. Gurdjieff didn't explicitly include reincarnation in his teaching (not in the usual accepted sense anyway), seeing it probably more detrimental that advantageous, an aspect of what he called the disease, tomorrow.
There is no purpose behind life. Gurdjieff didn't explicitly include reincarnation in his teaching.. I suspect he was a tad more realistic. You take writings literally, LITERALLY. And that's the rabbit hole. Yeah peeps don't like that one, like at all. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 19:08:39 GMT -5
So have I, SDP. This one, from the quote, was also on the list of all chased at some point. Niz gave the answer which resolves every question, already quoted: "What was born must die. Only the unborn is deathless. Find what is it that never sleeps and never wakes, and whose pale reflection is our sense of 'I' " That is not metaphorical, it is quite literal. Right but if you wait until all your karma's burned off this will never happen. Newsflash: Niz was a dude with certain cultural conditioning, so you will be able to find things to project yourself onto in what he said .. which is, given your position here, quite ironic. The only vehicle we have at our disposal to do this finding is the raggedy 'ole body/minds we were born into, with all their accumulated mileage, dings and dents. And the finding doesn't change any of that directly. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 8, 2015 19:11:43 GMT -5
So have I, SDP. This one, from the quote, was also on the list of all chased at some point.
SDP, I don't understand life, I wish I did. And I doubt anyone ever understood it. But I see what is real and what is not, that's all. It's all just too simple and far too sublime for a peeps mind to ever get within shouting distance. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 8, 2015 19:38:22 GMT -5
Niz: "I do not say that the same person is reborn. It dies and dies for good. But its memories remain and their desires and fears. They supply the energy for a new person. The real takes no part in it, but it makes it possible by giving it the light" I invite you to go back and compare this quote to my reply to 'dusty. 'dusty holds to the belief that karma must be burned up for TR to be complete. Do you think that your Niz quote supports that idea?No. I don't see Niz saying anything like that. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 8, 2015 22:44:34 GMT -5
Niz: "I do not say that the same person is reborn. It dies and dies for good. But its memories remain and their desires and fears. They supply the energy for a new person. The real takes no part in it, but it makes it possible by giving it the light" I invite you to go back and compare this quote to my reply to 'dusty. 'dusty holds to the belief that karma must be burned up for TR to be complete. Do you think that your Niz quote supports that idea? That's not what I said. The Niz quote supports what I said. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 8, 2015 22:49:00 GMT -5
Q: And what is death? Niz: It is the change in the living process of a particular body. Integration ends and disintegration sets in. Q: But what about the knower. With the disappearance of the body, does the knower disappear? Niz: Just as the knower of the body appears at birth, so he disappears at birth. Q: And nothing remains? Niz: Life remains. Consciousness needs a vehicle and an instrument for its manifestation. When life produces another body, another knower comes into being. Q: Is there a causal link between the successive body-knowers, or body-minds? Niz: Yes, there is something that may be called the memory body, or causal body, a record of all that was thought, wanted and done. It is like a cloud of images held together. Q: What is this sense of a separate existence? Niz: It is a reflection in a separate body of the one reality. In this reflection the unlimited and the limited are confused and taken to be the same. To undo this confusion is the purpose of Yoga. Q: Does not death undo this confusion? Niz: In death only the body dies. Life does not, consciousness does not, reality does not. And the life is never so alive as after death. Q: But does one get reborn? Niz; What was born must die. Only the unborn is deathless. Find what it is that never sleeps and never wakes, and whose pale reflection is our sense of 'I'. Q: How am I to go about finding out? Niz: How do you go about finding anything? By keeping your mind and heart on it. Interest there must be and steady remembrance. To remember what needs to be remembered is the secret of success. You come to it through earnestness. pages 11, 12, I Am That ................... Now, let's see how you can twist that, but I'm sure you can.......... ................... "Tom", "D!ck" or "Harry" dies when the body dies, or shortly thereafter. This is what the Bardo is about, spoken of in the Tibetan Book of the Dead (the western name, that's not what's it's really called). But yes, something accumulated, continues, the samskaras. This is what causes rebirth, if there are samskaras, rebirth is inevitable, and your present sh!t gets passed on to the next slob (which is in a sense you, yet not you, "another knower comes into being", the confusion of the unlimited and the limited continues, IOW, death does not undo the confusion), via the causal body. Everything Niz said there can be unfolded. He is precisely correct. Thanks for the recommendation. ........ ........ And, while I'm here, this is why sunshine is right and tano isn't. What Niz is pointing to is the impersonality of consciousness and how that relates to the personality of form: the quote doesn't support your conception of karma -- in terms of reason it actually supports mine -- and what you're using to try to win an intellectual debate here isn't the pointing, it's a conceptual shadow that's been sucked dry of any intended meaning. In relative terms, it all started with the big bang and spun out based on a set of characteristics ("laws of nature") in a sublime and beautiful random dance that's lasted billions of years yet. Don't conceit yourself into thinking that you can make some sort of choice that effects it. I can't help it that you don't understand what Niz said. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 8, 2015 22:51:01 GMT -5
Yes, exactly. This is the meaning of "Tom", D!ck" or "Harry" dies when the body dies, or shortly thereafter. ........ It's a very complicated issue, but Niz put it in a nutshell, my quote and your quote. ...........If one ponders these two quotes, a very great deal can be learned, but can't leave out any of the words of Niz, especially the words confused and confusion. The truth has nothing to do with burning karma off. It's not a reward for purifying yourself. Give me a Niz quote that says that (pre-SR). How do you explain the quote that said the unlimited and the limited are confused? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 8, 2015 22:56:14 GMT -5
Do you have any idea the number of Niz quotes I could put up where he refutes this idea that seekers have that the truth is at all contingent upon conditions? Truth is not contingent upon conditions. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 8, 2015 23:01:09 GMT -5
Niz gave the answer which resolves every question, already quoted: "What was born must die. Only the unborn is deathless. Find what is it that never sleeps and never wakes, and whose pale reflection is our sense of 'I' " That is not metaphorical, it is quite literal. Right but if you wait until all your karma's burned off this will never happen. Newsflash: Niz was a dude with certain cultural conditioning, so you will be able to find things to project yourself onto in what he said .. which is, given your position here, quite ironic. The only vehicle we have at our disposal to do this finding is the raggedy 'ole body/minds we were born into, with all their accumulated mileage, dings and dents. And the finding doesn't change any of that directly. You don't understand what Niz meant by "Find what it is that never sleeps and never wakes"... The finding changes everything. |
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