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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 8:53:25 GMT -5
It is kinda futile to talk about Big E, because all you can talk about is conceptual stuff. Can you go back to the very beginnings of concepts by using concepts? Its impossible to go back to the beginning because there is no beginning. The imaginary and conceptual universe flows on whether we 'go back to the beginning' or not. To attempt to go back to the beginning is still the imaginary and conceptual universe that we are fully immersed in flowing onwards. There is. When you fall asleep and unconscious, conceptualizing suddenly stops and it also suddenly starts when you wake up in the morning and become conscious. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 8:57:47 GMT -5
Its impossible to go back to the beginning because there is no beginning. The imaginary and conceptual universe flows on whether we 'go back to the beginning' or not. To attempt to go back to the beginning is still the imaginary and conceptual universe that we are fully immersed in flowing onwards. There is. When you fall asleep and unconscious, conceptualizing suddenly stops and it also suddenly starts when you wake up in the morning and become conscious. Yet the imaginary and conceptual universe continues. Creation continues to unfold. There is no beginning and sleep doesnt take us back to the beginning. It can be helpful to explore the idea of a beginning at times, but ultimately its a delusion. |
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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 9:04:26 GMT -5
There is. When you fall asleep and unconscious, conceptualizing suddenly stops and it also suddenly starts when you wake up in the morning and become conscious. Yet the imaginary and conceptual universe continues. Creation continues to unfold. There is no beginning and sleep doesnt take us back to the beginning. It can be helpful to explore the idea of a beginning at times, but ultimately its a delusion. So if you stop thinking the universe ceases to be? |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 20, 2012 9:10:47 GMT -5
Andrew: You wrote, "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality in which the experience is one of unconditional love, but it would be a reality in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience would still be based in contrast, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no contemplation, no choosing......just expression."
If we changed just a few words in this paragraph, it would describe exactly what Exactamente is pointing to, and what he means by "prior" and "flow." I would alter your statement thus:
"Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality (that is beyond the idea of "reality") in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience of that reality would be what it is, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no choosing......just pure action."
In such a reality there would be no self or other, no space or time, no here or there, no before or after, no ideas that could describe it, nothing to attain, nowhere to go, and nothing to get. In fact, the reality to which your paragraph alludes is the only reality, but it goes unrecognized. If you could drop all of your ideas, you would find that you ARE that reality manifesting "just like this." You would discover what is prior to anything that can be imagined, and you would recognize what is always "in flow" and unbounded. To find that reality you would have to be willing to leave the mind and enter unchartable territory. You would have to be willing to give up everything you know and BE THIS. You already ARE THIS, but currently you are psychologically standing outside of THIS. In truth, THIS is what you already and always ARE; "Andrew" and all of Andrew's ideas ABOUT THIS are the illusions.
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 9:43:39 GMT -5
Yet the imaginary and conceptual universe continues. Creation continues to unfold. There is no beginning and sleep doesnt take us back to the beginning. It can be helpful to explore the idea of a beginning at times, but ultimately its a delusion. So if you stop thinking the universe ceases to be? Where were we hehe... If the collective mind was no more there would be no more universe because the collective mind and universe are one and the same thing. So when sleeping happens, the individual mind may switch off or something but the collective mind does not, so even when sleeping, mind-ing is happening. We cannot escape mind-ing though we can get a break from it when we sleep. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 9:46:07 GMT -5
Andrew: You wrote, "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality in which the experience is one of unconditional love, but it would be a reality in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience would still be based in contrast, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no contemplation, no choosing......just expression." If we changed just a few words in this paragraph, it would describe exactly what Exactamente is pointing to, and what he means by "prior" and "flow." I would alter your statement thus: "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality (that is beyond the idea of "reality") in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience of that reality would be what it is, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no choosing......just pure action." In such a reality there would be no self or other, no space or time, no here or there, no before or after, no ideas that could describe it, nothing to attain, nowhere to go, and nothing to get. In fact, the reality to which your paragraph alludes is the only reality, but it goes unrecognized. If you could drop all of your ideas, you would find that you ARE that reality manifesting "just like this." You would discover what is prior to anything that can be imagined, and you would recognize what is always "in flow" and unbounded. To find that reality you would have to be willing to leave the mind and enter unchartable territory. You would have to be willing to give up everything you know and BE THIS. You already ARE THIS, but currently you are psychologically standing outside of THIS. In truth, THIS is what you already and always ARE; "Andrew" and all of Andrew's ideas ABOUT THIS are the illusions. Bingo. ZD, I've just adopted you as Andrew's official interpreter. ;D |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 9:50:29 GMT -5
Andrew: You wrote, "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality in which the experience is one of unconditional love, but it would be a reality in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience would still be based in contrast, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no contemplation, no choosing......just expression." If we changed just a few words in this paragraph, it would describe exactly what Exactamente is pointing to, and what he means by "prior" and "flow." I would alter your statement thus: "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality (that is beyond the idea of "reality") in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience of that reality would be what it is, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no choosing......just pure action." In such a reality there would be no self or other, no space or time, no here or there, no before or after, no ideas that could describe it, nothing to attain, nowhere to go, and nothing to get. In fact, the reality to which your paragraph alludes is the only reality, but it goes unrecognized. If you could drop all of your ideas, you would find that you ARE that reality manifesting "just like this." You would discover what is prior to anything that can be imagined, and you would recognize what is always "in flow" and unbounded. To find that reality you would have to be willing to leave the mind and enter unchartable territory. You would have to be willing to give up everything you know and BE THIS. You already ARE THIS, but currently you are psychologically standing outside of THIS. In truth, THIS is what you already and always ARE; "Andrew" and all of Andrew's ideas ABOUT THIS are the illusions. Our current experience is one of attraction and aversion, resonance and discord, yes and no, peace and war. This forum is a perfect example. In spiritual terms, we are at the leading edge and we STILL throw mud at each other. It happens. No amount of dropping anything, or seeing something, or letting go, or attending, or EFT or anything is going to change that fact of this reality i.e. that it is dualistic and opposites are experienced. In this reality, the most we can achieve really is an increased flexibility, responsiveness and present moment awareness. We can be more intelligent in the choices we make. We can also expand our field of behaviour options, and in getting clear about our values and preferences we can set meaningful goals to work towards and achieve in a non-attached way. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 9:52:08 GMT -5
Andrew: You wrote, "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality in which the experience is one of unconditional love, but it would be a reality in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience would still be based in contrast, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no contemplation, no choosing......just expression." If we changed just a few words in this paragraph, it would describe exactly what Exactamente is pointing to, and what he means by "prior" and "flow." I would alter your statement thus: "Therefore it is entirely possible to experience a reality (that is beyond the idea of "reality") in which we no longer imagine opposites, a reality in which there is only resonance, only harmony, only 'yes', and only flow. The experience of that reality would be what it is, but there would be no CONSCIOUS recognition or awareness of contrast because there would be no opposites imagined. There would be no 'this or that', no deliberation, no choosing......just pure action." In such a reality there would be no self or other, no space or time, no here or there, no before or after, no ideas that could describe it, nothing to attain, nowhere to go, and nothing to get. In fact, the reality to which your paragraph alludes is the only reality, but it goes unrecognized. If you could drop all of your ideas, you would find that you ARE that reality manifesting "just like this." You would discover what is prior to anything that can be imagined, and you would recognize what is always "in flow" and unbounded. To find that reality you would have to be willing to leave the mind and enter unchartable territory. You would have to be willing to give up everything you know and BE THIS. You already ARE THIS, but currently you are psychologically standing outside of THIS. In truth, THIS is what you already and always ARE; "Andrew" and all of Andrew's ideas ABOUT THIS are the illusions. Bingo. ZD, I've just adopted you as Andrew's official interpreter. ;D Unfortunately we experience discord when we read each other's messages hehe. Its because we are pointing to different things. The Reality I point to encompasses mind and ideation. |
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Post by Beingist on Jan 20, 2012 9:55:18 GMT -5
Our current experience is one of attraction and aversion, resonance and discord, yes and no, peace and war. This forum is a perfect example. In spiritual terms, we are at the leading edge and we STILL throw mud at each other. It happens. No amount of dropping anything, or seeing something, or letting go, or attending, or EFT or anything is going to change that fact of this reality i.e. that it is dualistic and opposites are experienced. In this reality, the most we can achieve really is an increased flexibility, responsiveness and present moment awareness. We can be more intelligent in the choices we make. We can also expand our field of behaviour options, and in getting clear about our values and preferences we can set meaningful goals to work towards and achieve in a non-attached way. Just to clarify, if I may, Andrew--to you, then, there is really nothing beyond (or 'prior to', or whatever) the three-dimensional universe. What you see is what you get. Is that right? |
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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 9:57:02 GMT -5
Unfortunately we experience discord when we read each other's messages hehe. Its because we are pointing to different things. The Reality I point to encompasses mind and ideation. We are all pointing to concepts, so basically we are pointing into the same direction, hehe. Aren't mind and ideation not just synonyms? |
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Post by exactamente on Jan 20, 2012 9:58:28 GMT -5
Just to clarify, if I may, Andrew--to you, then, there is really nothing beyond (or 'prior to', or whatever) the three-dimensional universe. What you see is what you get. Is that right? That would mean that Andrew is a marxist word smith.   |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 10:07:49 GMT -5
Our current experience is one of attraction and aversion, resonance and discord, yes and no, peace and war. This forum is a perfect example. In spiritual terms, we are at the leading edge and we STILL throw mud at each other. It happens. No amount of dropping anything, or seeing something, or letting go, or attending, or EFT or anything is going to change that fact of this reality i.e. that it is dualistic and opposites are experienced. In this reality, the most we can achieve really is an increased flexibility, responsiveness and present moment awareness. We can be more intelligent in the choices we make. We can also expand our field of behaviour options, and in getting clear about our values and preferences we can set meaningful goals to work towards and achieve in a non-attached way. Just to clarify, if I may, Andrew--to you, then, there is really nothing beyond (or 'prior to', or whatever) the three-dimensional universe. What you see is what you get. Is that right? I dunno abount the '3 dimensions' bit but if I just leave that aside, I would say that its not that there is nothing other than Mind/universe. There is Being and Mind but they are inextricably linked, interwoven and non-separate. The reason I say 'its all Mind' is to point away from the search for an enlightened state and to point away from the idea that its possible to stand on the riverbank and passively and neutrally and separately observe creation go by. Having said that, creating the illusion of standing on the bank can be a useful thing to do sometimes. I dont think Im saying that 'what you see is what you get'. Im really just saying that there is no state that is available only to the elusive few. We all know love, and peace and joy. I think what spiritual people work towards and search for, is, in simple terms, to experience more goodness and more consistently. We are looking for a way of experiencing the goodness that isnt totally dependent on the conditions/form. And I would say that there IS a way of experiencing more goodness, more consistently. without attaching to the form. And I would say that the potential for experiencing ONLY the good stuff is there, but not at the moment while we are still interested in consciously experiencing contrast. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2012 10:14:16 GMT -5
it seems like the disputes with andrew just are a matter of priority in terms of what is discussed at this forum. there's an agreement that the first fundamental step is non-abidance in [insert favorite terms here. those could be ZDs "mind" or andrew's 'attachment to personal identity']. In other words, there's agreement on the importance of fully grokking a reality that involves not being identified with regular old personal identity stuff. Andrew's take seems to be that, while that is a fundamental step, it is also maybe fairly common at this forum and so the next step is more interesting. The next step has to do with what to do when those fundamentals have been 'established' so he goes to LOA, etc.
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 10:14:18 GMT -5
Unfortunately we experience discord when we read each other's messages hehe. Its because we are pointing to different things. The Reality I point to encompasses mind and ideation. We are all pointing to concepts, so basically we are pointing into the same direction, hehe. Aren't mind and ideation not just synonyms? Yes. I would say we are pointing generally in the same direction but there are some slight variations, and we like to make war and peace out of these subtle variations. Its not like any of us are saying 'you have to have a lot of money in the bank to be happy'. I think whereas many people here point solely to formlessness, I point to formlessness AND form because I see value in acknowledging values, preferences, ambitions, goals and ideals. I see acknowledging these things as part of being present because all these things are happening anyway. Better to be conscious of them than pretend they arent there or try and stop them happening. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 20, 2012 10:29:35 GMT -5
it seems like the disputes with andrew just are a matter of priority in terms of what is discussed at this forum. there's an agreement that the first fundamental step is non-abidance in [insert favorite terms here. those could be ZDs "mind" or andrew's 'attachment to personal identity']. In other words, there's agreement on the importance of fully grokking a reality that involves not being identified with regular old personal identity stuff. Andrew's take seems to be that, while that is a fundamental step, it is also maybe fairly common at this forum and so the next step is more interesting. The next step has to do with what to do when those fundamentals have been 'established' so he goes to LOA, etc. Yes, thats cool. Im all about disidentification and non-attachment though it doesnt seem like it sometimes because the stuff I often talk about is so often associated with identification and attachment. It is my opinion that personal development can be helpful in releasing the 'personal'. And thats because while there is a need to attach and identify, the non-dual paradigm and body of ideas will inevitably and naturally be identified with and attached to. Essentially we disidentify from the personal and identify with the impersonal. I know because Ive done it. When this happens it can be helpful to look at our values, ambitions and ideals and to look at the kind of person we would prefer to be, the kind of experience we would prefer to have. In doing this we essentially go against all our ideas about what an enlightened person should look like and should be experiencing, and this is a good thing. |
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