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Post by lolly on Mar 8, 2016 3:19:12 GMT -5
What I noticed when checking for that "elevator down" sensation during meditation can be described by a similar experience relevant to sleeping and dreaming. 1) The noticing of it was very much like what happens when I'm about to drift off to sleep and then suddenly, a thought will arise that brings back the onset of wakefulness. 2) If you've ever noticed, there is a state in between wakefulness and initial sleep when the mind is active that involves a free association into the sort of nonsensical thoughts that form the basis of dreams. When the mind is quiet, there is no such perceptible activity, and the interval between closing the eyes and falling asleep isn't really discernable, but after the fact, seems much much shorter. An example of such a drift-off stream might be that the last coherent thought is of a one of my cats .. that are like tribbles, that are like cotton balls, hmmm ... there's a cotton ball with a face that's stirring around in my medicine cabinet ... Now this could lead to a dream, or, a thought might occur ... "d@mn! I forgot that I have a vet appt tomorrow!", and that point, wakefulness returns. This is something that is a common theme involving meditation: it is where tension and relaxation meet in a dance of opposites. Bode Miller once described his downhill runs in similar terms -- that in the doing, he is both absolutely relaxed and yet on infinite alert. It is the alert attention that both leads to the state where the bottom drops out and that can arrest it as it happens. Personally, I was never looking for this before, so of the dozens of times on the bench when it seemed to me after I got up based on physical and mental state that the meditation was deep, I can't say what happened in terms of that -- but there was never a time when the sense of the breeze or the sound of the insects went away completely. :) From previous cycles of integrating information into the practice, I expect that I'll encounter this sort of interruption a number of times until this thought about the happening is Mu. 1) gosh - sometimes that keeps me up all night. 2) i get a lot on nonsense in the morning slumber I usually take the opportunity to meditate on the commute into the city, and its not a deep meditation, but it is spacious and serene and sets up a 'standard' of calm for the coming day. On the afternoon trip I run the risk of nodding off, but it's also a serenity of tiredness.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 4:02:32 GMT -5
Beware of such accounts of mystical experiences. They are interesting and exciting and wrongly give the reader something to aspire to and look forward to in their own practice. Everyone likes out of the ordinary experiences, but what he was describing is not self realization, which is very quiet and very ordinary. He clearly wasn't finished as he says so himself. Correct.
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5
Laughter: if I can ever get finished with this last house construction project, maybe I'll do some more writing. I obviously have no idea what will happen next. ha ha. well, best wishes with both, either and whatever else might compete for your attention and interest. Your points about positive samadhi are well-taken and well-made as always, and I admit that my focus in comparing the triad of kensho/satori/samadhi was focused on sitting meditation. I noticed something on wikipedia that piqued my curiosity: is it true that at Soto Zendo's they face the wall, while at Rinzai Zendo's they face inward, toward each other?
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:28:02 GMT -5
Finally, just a note on zazen. The word "zazen" is used in a general sense to describe any form of sitting meditation (mantra recitation, breath awareness, breath counting, pure listening, etc), but Zen people use the word specifically to refer to the practice of shika taza. Shikan taza is the practice of extreme alert attentiveness without any specific focus. It's equivalent to sitting in a dark forest at night surrounded by potentially dangerous animals and staying in a heightened sense of alertness. It is a difficult, if not impossible, activity for beginning meditators. This is what Albert Low calls, "Arousing the mind without resting it on anything". He says it's easy to arouse the mind. It said it's easy for the mind not to rest on anything. But difficult to have both simultaneously, to arouse the mind without resting it on anything. He mentions this rather often in his books, specifically in The Iron Cow of Zen, pages 198,199 Wow, great quote, thanks for that, there's definitely some really fine-tuned practical knowledge in it. While I see the connection between the prescription and sitting meditation, the first time I read it I took it as a 16/7 walking/talking advice similar to "mindfulness". Low cites his source for it as the Diamond Sutra and the translations I've been looking at seem to confirm that idea. The connection between this and what ZD wrote about states of positive samadhi should be clear. A recurring theme that I've read from others and that one can find for oneself, is that there comes a point where the difference between the mind states of sitting meditation and walking/talking meditation can either blur or very suddenly drop away in a snap. This idea, also, is related to the personal koan that ZD expresses, "How is it possible to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind all the time?"
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:31:20 GMT -5
1) gosh - sometimes that keeps me up all night. 2) i get a lot on nonsense in the morning slumber I usually take the opportunity to meditate on the commute into the city, and its not a deep meditation, but it is spacious and serene and sets up a 'standard' of calm for the coming day. On the afternoon trip I run the risk of nodding off, but it's also a serenity of tiredness. 1)
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:36:10 GMT -5
Beware of such accounts of mystical experiences. They are interesting and exciting and wrongly give the reader something to aspire to and look forward to in their own practice. Everyone likes out of the ordinary experiences, but what he was describing is not self realization, which is very quiet and very ordinary. He clearly wasn't finished as he says so himself. Adya makes a similar distinction in his interview at the end of "Emptiness Dancing". If I recall, it's essentially in answer to the question "how do you know you're 'done'?? " But. Peeps are all such beautifully and majestically unique creatures. Extrapolating from the experiences of one person or even a group of peeps can be a hazard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 7:37:35 GMT -5
Beware of such accounts of mystical experiences. They are interesting and exciting and wrongly give the reader something to aspire to and look forward to in their own practice. Everyone likes out of the ordinary experiences, but what he was describing is not self realization, which is very quiet and very ordinary. He clearly wasn't finished as he says so himself. Adya makes a similar distinction in his interview at the end of "Emptiness Dancing". If I recall, it's essentially in answer to the question "how do you know you're 'done'?? " But. Peeps are all such beautifully and majestically unique creatures. Extrapolating from the experiences of one person or even a group of peeps can be a hazard. Indeed.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 7:49:53 GMT -5
Laughter: if I can ever get finished with this last house construction project, maybe I'll do some more writing. I obviously have no idea what will happen next. ha ha. well, best wishes with both, either and whatever else might compete for your attention and interest. Your points about positive samadhi are well-taken and well-made as always, and I admit that my focus in comparing the triad of kensho/satori/samadhi was focused on sitting meditation. I noticed something on wikipedia that piqued my curiosity: is it true that at Soto Zendo's they face the wall, while at Rinzai Zendo's they face inward, toward each other? Yes, in most Soto Zendos practitioners face the wall whereas Rinzai practitioners face each other.
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:55:49 GMT -5
Adya makes a similar distinction in his interview at the end of "Emptiness Dancing". If I recall, it's essentially in answer to the question "how do you know you're 'done'?? " But. Peeps are all such beautifully and majestically unique creatures. Extrapolating from the experiences of one person or even a group of peeps can be a hazard. Indeed. But ZD's point about solving one koan and the end of the line is solid.
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Post by laughter on Mar 8, 2016 7:56:18 GMT -5
well, best wishes with both, either and whatever else might compete for your attention and interest. Your points about positive samadhi are well-taken and well-made as always, and I admit that my focus in comparing the triad of kensho/satori/samadhi was focused on sitting meditation. I noticed something on wikipedia that piqued my curiosity: is it true that at Soto Zendo's they face the wall, while at Rinzai Zendo's they face inward, toward each other? Yes, in most Soto Zendos practitioners face the wall whereas Rinzai practitioners face each other.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 8:03:39 GMT -5
But ZD's point about solving one koan and the end of the line is solid. I'm not into koans so I wouldn't know.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 8, 2016 8:24:53 GMT -5
Yes, in most Soto Zendos practitioners face the wall whereas Rinzai practitioners face each other. ? Why ?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 8:25:19 GMT -5
well, best wishes with both, either and whatever else might compete for your attention and interest. Your points about positive samadhi are well-taken and well-made as always, and I admit that my focus in comparing the triad of kensho/satori/samadhi was focused on sitting meditation. I noticed something on wikipedia that piqued my curiosity: is it true that at Soto Zendo's they face the wall, while at Rinzai Zendo's they face inward, toward each other? Yes, in most Soto Zendos practitioners face the wall whereas Rinzai practitioners face each other. FWIW, Advaita and other non-duality focused retreats are much less structured, and far more relaxed than Zen retreats and/or meditation sessions. Participants often sit in comfortable chairs, and spend much of their time (when not listening to dharma talks or discussion sessions) walking outside and enjoying scenic vistas. The last retreat I attended was at the Stanford Sierra Conference Center located on Fallen Leaf Lake which is close to Lake Tahoe. The only general rule was to maintain silence during the retreat except at meetings, and people were free to do whatever they wished. Some people sat and watched wildlife around the lake, some people paddled kayaks on the lake, some people did sitting meditation, and other people walked around the area, which was spectacularly beautiful. That particular facility is adjacent to the Desolation Wilderness Area, and I hiked into that area as well as to the summit of Mt. Tallac which rises several thousand feet behind the center. Spending several days in silent attentiveness is far more relaxing and unifying than an ordinary vacation, and ATA-T gradually becomes the default mode for a lot of people, even if unintentionally. Having attended all kinds of silent retreats during the last thirty years, I highly recommend the more relaxed and unstructured varieties. People seem to have just as many realizations and insights on those kinds of retreats as on the more formal and rigid kinds. On Zen retreats eye contact is discouraged, but on some non-duality retreats participants are encouraged to sit and purposefully stare into each other's eyes, which can be a powerful connecting experience. I've noticed that the more unstructured retreats (where participants often share personal stories and problems) seem to foster stronger social connectivity, warmth, compassion, and love than the austere and isolating-type retreats. After a Zen retreat, you don't see many people hug each other or express deep feelings, but that's quite common at the unstructured type retreats. That's just a personal observation.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 8:30:34 GMT -5
But ZD's point about solving one koan and the end of the line is solid. I'm not into koans so I wouldn't know. Most people on the pathless path have pursued koans informally whether it was realized or not. A koan is any kind of existential question. Asking "What's going on?" or "Who am I?" or "What is the truth of human existence?" or "What is the purpose of my life?" are all powerful koans, as is any other existential question that one happens to contemplate.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 8, 2016 8:35:35 GMT -5
? Why ? The wall-facing tradition probably derived from the story of Bodhidharma who reportedly meditated while facing a wall for seven years. It may also be pursued as a way to remove any peripheral distractions, such as noticing other peoples' movements, etc. It's one of those old traditions that should probably be thrown out the window, but........to each his/her own.
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