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Post by tathagata on Sept 13, 2011 12:35:34 GMT -5
Look at an object, concentrate on it....now become aware of your seeing of the object....close your eyes and observe the awareness that is aware of the seeing....concentrate on this awareness until there is only the awareness, pure awareness that is not doing anything like seeing or thinking, its just being awareness...now move outside the awareness and observe it...to do this you will have to let go of the awareness of being, or I amness, and disolve into your eternally still nonbeingness....
Do this and you won't have an intellectual puzzle to solve anymore LOL...Becuase you will see clearly for yourself in direct experience.
P.s....this may be easy for you to do, or it may take some practice to accomplish it, Becuase your mind my not be use to this kind of activity, but if you keep at it eventually you will enter the stillness of nonbeing being....this tends to answer a lot of questions and solve a lot of problems LOL.
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Post by enigma on Sept 13, 2011 12:40:01 GMT -5
A material cause/effect process that doesn't watch and doesn't know. I'm not saying that this is how it is. I'm just saying that I don't see how this choice is less plausible than saying that there is an awareness that keeps track of time while consciousness is absent. Further I am pointing out that if you say that awareness keeps track of time then you also have to admit that it regulates body chemistry and muscle movement etc. Yes, whatever awakens the body at a given time is the same doohickey that runs the body. It's no use pointing to those bodily processes and implying that something other than brain is running the show (though I would if I could), because all of that is obviously happening in the waking state also, and without our conscious intention, and we already have what we think is a plausible explanation, though it's not well understood. What makes the notion of waking up at an intended time interesting is the conscious intention together with the fact that the intention cannot be consciously fulfilled. The question is, what is the material cause/effect process that fulfills the conscious intention when consciousness is absent? Whatever this is, would it not be more fundamental than consciousness itself? I should mention before I get in too deeply that this whole discussion is contextual and can be blown up completely, though it seems useful for now.
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Post by enigma on Sept 13, 2011 12:51:47 GMT -5
Maybe "who is watching the clock" isn't so much about finding and defining that which is watching the clock, but to notice that the question is set up in such a way as to suggest that there is a watcher before it is even established that 'watching the clock' has even occured. Obviously I haven't watched the clock and am stumbling in the dark merely trying to figure out a logical consequence of just who it would be that would have to watch the clock IF there had been such an event. Well, it's not clear if you've had the experience of 'programming' yourself to wake up at a given time. If not, the premise of the discussion isn't valid for you. The experience is quite common and so maybe I assumed you shared it. Yes, though i realize that pointing to it without destabilizing mind's conceptual understanding in some ways, as Tath is doing here, probly has an equivalent longevity probability as compacted ice crystalizations in hell.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 13, 2011 12:52:37 GMT -5
A material cause/effect process that doesn't watch and doesn't know. I'm not saying that this is how it is. I'm just saying that I don't see how this choice is less plausible than saying that there is an awareness that keeps track of time while consciousness is absent. Further I am pointing out that if you say that awareness keeps track of time then you also have to admit that it regulates body chemistry and muscle movement etc. As an aside, your awareness does regulate your body chemistry and such LOL...it does it on autopilot just like it creates ideas, beliefs, and desires on autopilot until you choose to pay attention to the autopilot and take it off of autopilot....just like you can "notice" your thoughts and beliefs forming out of pure awareness/I amness, and takes those thoughts and beliefs out of autopilot/unconcious doing. So to can you take the autopilot off of physical things your body does....many yogis have done this in the past...you can go without food and water for decades...there are many cases where scientists have followed yogis, and in one case a Christian mystic, and observed them going without food and water for months with no ill affects...there are yogis that have slowed there body chemistry down so much that they appear to stop breathing for days like the anescthetic they found witchdoctors in Haiti using to create the appearence that they brought someone back from the dead, when all they did was slow the body chemistry down so much that even a doctor thought they were dead LOL...all scientifically documented, do some googling and check it out.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 13, 2011 13:11:35 GMT -5
Andrew you'll like this post too LOL, Enigma here's another cool thing to do with time...look at the exact time to get a concious referances point....then conciously decide to know what time it is at all times...you will find that hours and hours may pass absorbed in some activity, and you are not paying any attention to what time it is...but at any time you immedietly say what time it is to the minute LOL...the same principle as programming yourself to wake up at a certain time. Awareness, i amness....does everything...it does it on autopilot much of the time, and has unlimited creative powers...this is the principle behind the law of attraction etc...you can reprogram the autopilot of you awareness/I amness with a little effort and accomplish anything LOL...this is why Jesus said that if you have enough belief in yourself you tell a mountain to carry itself into the sea and it will carry itself into the sea LOL...read Mark 11:23-24 sometime LOL. Jesus answered. 23 “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it(note the current tense here), and it will be yours.
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Post by enigma on Sept 13, 2011 13:20:48 GMT -5
Enigma here's another cool thing to do with time...look at the exact to to get a concious referances point....then conciously decide to know what time it is at all times...you will find that hours and hours may pass absorbed in some activity, and you are not paying any attention to what time it is...but at any time you immedietly say what time it is to the minute LOL...the same principle as programming yourself to wake up at a certain time. Yes, I've done that a couple of times, also failed miserably a few times. I think I need more Yogic practice. Hehe.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 13, 2011 13:25:12 GMT -5
LOL...well for what its worth I only think those kinds of practices are good in that they give you some visceral experience of a part of your nature that might broaden your view...in the end your still in a kind of bondage until you completely surrender, you just become aware of your creative powers...which can be a lot of fun LOL....there is a very valid case to be made that this universe is really just an entertaining way for our still unbeing nature to become self aware. So why not spend some time entertaining yourself with some of your creative powers of I amness?...this is kinda what Andrew believes...and while I disagree with Andrew that you cannot become free of your unconcious doing based on my own experience, I do agree that there is no rush and that stopping the mad dash to liberation and having some fun with your creative powers is just as wonderful of a choice as running past third on the way to home plate so to speak.
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Post by question on Sept 13, 2011 14:48:08 GMT -5
A material cause/effect process that doesn't watch and doesn't know. I'm not saying that this is how it is. I'm just saying that I don't see how this choice is less plausible than saying that there is an awareness that keeps track of time while consciousness is absent. Further I am pointing out that if you say that awareness keeps track of time then you also have to admit that it regulates body chemistry and muscle movement etc. Yes, whatever awakens the body at a given time is the same doohickey that runs the body. It's no use pointing to those bodily processes and implying that something other than brain is running the show (though I would if I could), because all of that is obviously happening in the waking state also, and without our conscious intention, and we already have what we think is a plausible explanation, though it's not well understood. What makes the notion of waking up at an intended time interesting is the conscious intention together with the fact that the intention cannot be consciously fulfilled. The question is, what is the material cause/effect process that fulfills the conscious intention when consciousness is absent? Whatever this is, would it not be more fundamental than consciousness itself? Yes, but only if indeed something happens in the absence of consciousness, which I can't conclude from memory, I can only suspect that consciousness was absent or that something happened in its absence. If I trust my memory and the conclusions derived from memory and say that something happened while consciousness was absent then the process is more fundamental than consciousness. But I don't know what the process is. It could be awareness-prior-to-consciousness or unaware matter/energy. I think both are equally strong explanations, or maybe not equally strong, but in any case neither is strong enough to be a necessity. Either way, we remain in the realm of speculation and so I await your point. In think I have. Often I would set the clock alarm and wake up just minutes before the alarm. Sometimes I woke up much earlier than usual only to be surprised that a minute later the phone rings.
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Post by enigma on Sept 13, 2011 15:55:31 GMT -5
Yes, whatever awakens the body at a given time is the same doohickey that runs the body. It's no use pointing to those bodily processes and implying that something other than brain is running the show (though I would if I could), because all of that is obviously happening in the waking state also, and without our conscious intention, and we already have what we think is a plausible explanation, though it's not well understood. What makes the notion of waking up at an intended time interesting is the conscious intention together with the fact that the intention cannot be consciously fulfilled. The question is, what is the material cause/effect process that fulfills the conscious intention when consciousness is absent? Whatever this is, would it not be more fundamental than consciousness itself? Yes, but only if indeed something happens in the absence of consciousness, which I can't conclude from memory, I can only suspect that consciousness was absent or that something happened in its absence.If I trust my memory and the conclusions derived from memory and say that something happened while consciousness was absent then the process is more fundamental than consciousness. I guess I don't understand. Waking up happens at a predetermined time when memory tells you that you were apparently unconscious. If you don't trust your memory, what would be the point in any sort of discussion about anything? So maybe we just have to trust that. I'm asking how unaware matter/energy could fulfill an aware, conscious intention. If you're pointing to bodily processes as evidence that matter responds to awareness, I would suggest that it does, which is my point.
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Post by question on Sept 13, 2011 17:06:17 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand. Waking up happens at a predetermined time when memory tells you that you were apparently unconscious. If you don't trust your memory, what would be the point in any sort of discussion about anything? So maybe we just have to trust that. Actually I thought it was part of your strategy to clarify the role of memories in our problem. The way I understood you is that it's not about trusting memories. Memories are memories, they are not the problem. The problem is that we interpret memories (and lack thereof) in a way that gives rise to a philosophical problem which is structured in such a way that it can't be solved permanently. In our case we have interpreted memories and lack thereof to dictate that there is a state within which awareness is absent. Deep sleep is now like a black hole, no matter what we do, we can't solve it, because we can't subjectively experience deep sleep. At best we end up with 'if if if ... then then then". And I think the problem is with the 'ifs' rather than the 'thens'. The 'ifs' dicate the 'thens'. How should I know... maybe brain magic? The point is that if I accept awareness as the explanation then I equally will have to account for how it is possible that awareness operates fundamental body functions... in the end we would end up with awareness magic. Same thing logically, both options are logically unsatisfying and remain mere speculation. I guess within the standard model awareness doesn't dictate anything, there is only the experience of the illusion that it does. Rather it is always unaware matter that is running the show. But it's only a model and completely beside the point imo. I'm not here to defend materialism or accept awareness-ism because it is more likely to be true. The question is still how to know that there is awareness in deep sleep and how to know that your awareness is the same as mine and how awareness controls body chemistry.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2011 19:50:35 GMT -5
Can you bite the bullet and talk more about the last step? What exactly do you know/see about it? What is it that the physical and mental connect to? What is it that sees the brain activity? If not, a better alternative is to follow ZD's advice of ATA. That last bullet, which contains the mystery of the mind-body connection, is not something I have the time or energy to become well-informed in. Especially since I know that many tenured postitions have been unable to come up with an answer. I don't know squat about it really. I've read a few things here and there but it's all conjecture. All I know is that right now some words are flowing out about avoiding studying the topic in an academic sense. And meanwhile, the keys are sensed, words are typed almost pre-cognition. And of course there's an awareness going on. So you're right, ATA is probably a better use of time. Or observing the observer or noticing or all of the above.
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Post by enigma on Sept 13, 2011 20:03:03 GMT -5
The question is still how to know that there is awareness in deep sleep and how to know that your awareness is the same as mine and how awareness controls body chemistry. I don't see how there could be any provable answers to that. That's actually a foundational declaration of all this nondual malarky, so what you're looking for will never happen.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 13, 2011 22:43:40 GMT -5
The question is still how to know that there is awareness in deep sleep and how to know that your awareness is the same as mine and how awareness controls body chemistry. I don't see how there could be any provable answers to that. That's actually a foundational declaration of all this nondual malarky, so what you're looking for will never happen. The way to prove it is experience it, and the easiest way to experience it is with practice....there are techniques for this....but as an aside...there is awareness, i amness in sleep...but it is not your awareness that is the same as others awareness...your awareness is a wave on the ocean...stillness is the shared ocean..
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Post by tathagata on Sept 14, 2011 1:50:13 GMT -5
There is a technique to become aware in sleep...but once you are fully surrendered in the stillness you be aware in deep sleep anyway...
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Post by Portto on Sept 14, 2011 6:03:31 GMT -5
Maxd: There's a very good reason scientists didn't find the watcher of thoughts. It's very difficult to imagine such an entity. Some people imagine a soul that is watching and memorizing thought. And many variations of this theme.
Regarding your initial post, you can't see the same awareness at the same time as you see different people.
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